Escaping a Toxic Marriage Unleashes Jenn Todling's True Self

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Today's guest is Jenn Todling. She is a former corporate executive who walked away from a 20-year career and a challenging marriage to truly redesign her life with purpose, creativity, and that word that some people don't love, authenticity. She's now an author, she's an executive coach, and she's a teacher. And she's super passionate about helping others embrace life's messy, beautiful transitions.

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In this episode, Jenn shares her journey of navigating guilt and breaking free from toxic patterns and truly learning to honor her own needs for the first time. We explore the pivotal moments that sparked her transformation, including this life-changing question that she discovered in a book that she doesn't remember if she finished reading. What would your life look like five years from now if you don't make a change? Jen's story is raw.

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honest and it's filled with lessons about really setting boundaries and trusting your gut and it'll help you create a life that aligns with who you truly are. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Jen Toddling. I remember looking at like the first page and it had this quote and it said, what would your life look like five years from now if you don't?

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make a change. And I remember just, I don't even know if I continued reading the book, to be honest with you. I don't remember because it was sort of like that experience you talked about where it was, wow, I've been trying to keep everything together, but I'm ignoring the cost of staying. And I was already at my breaking point, I had already broken down, I was already not okay mentally. And so that thought honestly, was sort of this moment of it really doesn't matter.

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why or how the complexity of our situation is where it is, I can't stay. Like it's not okay for me. And that was sort of that first shift that I needed to say, then how do I actually untangle myself from the situation? I'm Matt Gilhooly and this is The Life Shift. Candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Jen. Hello, Jen. Hi, Matt. So nice to be here with you. Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the LifeShift Podcast. This has been a journey that I never really knew that I needed. And it's just so wonderful to have something like this where I can talk to people that otherwise might never have interacted with in my life and the ability to do it in a way in which the stories and the conversations that we share

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ttle bit about who you are in: 2025

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Yeah, so I wear many hats. I'm a mom, I have a six year old, I'm a wife, I've been married almost, I guess, nine years now. I just recently made a big career pivot. So I spent 20 years in public accounting and a high corporate, know, high intense job. about 10 months ago, I left that to pursue my dreams really. And so that's life as an author. I'm an executive coach and a teacher. So I teach leadership at the University of Denver. So I'm really in this like interesting

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space of designing sort of my life and career 2.0. And so it's a lot of learning to slow down, to be honest with you, like allow for spaciousness and a little bit more heart led versus sort of like checking the boxes. And so that's been an interesting transformation that is ongoing, so to speak. mean, that's beautiful. It's also like when you said the things that you're doing now were, were so not on the list of things that

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that I could have chosen from in high school. Like these are the things you can be when you grow up. Yeah, no. I followed the path, right? And I made it to the top. And then it was like, wait a minute, but is this how I want to live my life? I think that there are, I think the 40s, like getting close to being 40 is this, the people around me that are my age seem to be having this kind of awakening, if you will. I don't know if you're seeing that around you, but I think that maybe the pandemic also kind of.

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got people like, oh, if this is happening, maybe I should emerge doing something I like to do. Yeah, I mean, the pandemic for me was absolutely a triggering point. And I was like, what am I doing? And I started shifting during that time to coaching and education and doing it kind of while I was still in corporate. But I do think the 40s are sort of this midlife awakening. you do have this, like you start to understand your mortality a little bit different and also.

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what makes you happy, right? And the money isn't always gonna do that. And so that I really struggled with, it was like, oh, how do I walk away from the security that I worked so hard for? And it took me three years, honestly, to find the courage to be like, okay, it's time. And I'm not saying it's without worry now, but there's a different level of fulfillment. And you probably care less about what other people think. think we did in our 20s. We're gonna impress everyone.

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No, and I'm okay. I was like the straight A student, right? I'm a people pleaser. And now I'm like, I can be a bee mom. I can be a bee worker. you know, because there's, because I want to have a full life. And so I'm not chasing that perfection. It's just not fun. I'm just I try and take action imperfectly. I love that. Let's dive into your story. Maybe you can paint the picture of your life leading up to this life shift moment and go back as far as you need to kind of give that picture and then we'll go from there. Yeah, so I would say

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Like for me, it starts probably in my youth and my parents also divorced when I was young. I was a little bit older. I was about 12 and I had two other siblings at the time and I was the oldest, right? So I kind of helped take care of them. We lived with my dad, but I loved to dance. Like I always loved to dance. I was sort of self-trained, grew up dancing to Star Search and Madonna and just, old school.

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And when I was 14, I got professional training. joined a ballet company. I became a principal dancer. Like I just was like at the ballet studio every day after school. And so that was a really big part of who I am. And that creative outlet really helped me through sort of my youth as I was navigating caregiving and, you know, family responsibilities. And so when I was 20, I was a sophomore, almost a sophomore in college. I got married.

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sort of had this adventure idea and the person I got married to lived in California. So was like, I'm out of here. Like I'm going to have an adventure and start a new life, so to speak. And so I did that, continued my degree. You know, we were married for a few years, everything was fine. Started working in a corporate job and then my spouse got sick and it took many years to figure out what the cause was. And there was a lot of

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this new job in the early: 2000

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you can try. And I was able to do that for about five years and manage sort of these different responsibilities. But with that, the situation also started to get volatile and toxic. And I was very isolated, so I kind of became homebound too. Like I would leave sometimes maybe to go to the office, but not very much. I didn't have a lot of outlets with my friends. Like I would try and then I'd have to come home really quickly.

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So it was this very isolated situation and my family was all still in Colorado and so I didn't really see them. And so my mental health took a toll, right? And I started to get to a point that I had sort of a mental breakdown and I realized like, I am not okay. Like I am not okay. But how do I leave? How do I leave this situation that's really complex and someone needs me but it's also not good for me. I'm tethered, right?

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I stuck. I was so stuck and I couldn't see a way out. Yeah. Do you also feel like, this is me just assuming here, but is there like a guilt feeling too? 100%. If someone quote unquote needs you to survive in the way that they were living, I feel like I would also have this like guilt. Like who am I? Why am I putting myself above someone else if I want to do X, Y, Z when so and so needs me to exist?

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100%. And then as I said at the beginning, right here, I'm the straight A student. I'm the people pleaser. I want people to like me. And I think subconsciously probably need me. I was used to that. There was this sort of like, I feel some comfort in that. And so I couldn't mentally fathom leaving someone so dependent on me, but also the situation was not good for me. And so it was a very, very tricky scenario. And you didn't really have...

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a friend group that you could share any of that with? The reason I ask that is sometimes when we're in these circumstances, we have an outlet where we can share something. Did you have someone you could share these thoughts I had a little bit. I had two of my best friends were in California and I would still talk with my family and they would encourage me to leave. It was like, this isn't good for you.

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But I was like, I know, but how do I do that? How do I navigate this? And honestly, I don't know that I was completely transparent either with everything I was going through because I didn't know how to process it. And you probably grew up not like parents telling you, you don't talk about certain things with other people or did you have an open kind of conversation? I mean, we had an open, but my parents were navigating their own lives a little bit. So we were pretty independent.

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I think I had, I definitely had shame. Now that I can look back, there was a shame element of something's happening here that I don't feel comfortable with, but I don't know how to say that. Cause you're failing in your eyes, you're failing. Yeah, I am right. Yeah. There was, there was a lot of big emotions and the guilt, honestly, when we kind of talk about the after, I mean, that was, that was what I had to process a little bit because that it was so deep. Yeah. I mean, it's, challenging to, I think for anyone that's been in a place.

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doesn't necessarily have to be a relationship. It could even be a friendship. A place where you feel that you're not in the right place, but you also know that everyone's expecting you to commit to this experience, if you will, and now you're gonna fail. Yeah. In their eyes. If you make any other choice, that's not what you think they expect you. They probably don't think that, but what you assume that other people are like, oh well, you leave this, you have failed.

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at this checkbox in your life? Yeah, and I think my family was pretty supportive of me leaving, but definitely not my spouse, right? I mean, there was a lot of complexity there. I mean, was this something that you were keeping to yourself or was this like, hey, I'm going to leave if? I was keeping it to myself. I didn't feel safe to have that conversation. Which is even scarier to go through each day in a not scared.

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Scary might not be the right word, but more challenging to navigate your everyday life knowing you're keeping this huge secret with the person you're with most of the hours of the day. What do you do to take steps forward? Can you take steps forward? I mean, obviously you have, but how does that unfold? Yeah, I mean, I think there was...

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it was hard to explain sort of like to be really honest with how I felt about it, right? Because I didn't know how to navigate that. didn't have language growing up to honestly honor my needs. And that's not to anyone's fault or situational. just hadn't had that experience, right? And that people pleasing side of me had a hard time holding a boundary and saying, hey, I'm not comfortable in this scenario. And that was something that I've had to spend the last sort of

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20 years, right? Like learning, to be honest with you, of like, hey, it's not okay. And when we talk about the shift moment, I think that that's probably why that shift resonated with me. But I just I didn't know how to navigate that, just to be honest with you. Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people listening probably grew up in the same environment, because I think it was more of a time period and maybe less of your parents in particular. I think it was just that's not what we talk about anywhere.

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because it's uncomfortable. it's not the highlight reel. This is not the highlight reel chapter. Exactly, but it's the real chapter. I feel like there's so many people that are slowly dying in silence because of the situations that they're in, whether that's physically or mentally, that we're just kind of depleted because we're putting all of your A-plus energy.

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into existing so other people, so you don't ruffle feathers or whatever it may be and then you have to kind of find your way out. I get it. I think that's why love this show because we're talking about things that like when I grew up, we weren't allowed to talk about these things. In my opinion, I don't know if someone said I wasn't allowed. I'm sure someone was like, don't ask this question or don't say this. You know, even in my own family with some of the like the scandals that were in my family, it's like even now I'll like whisper a secret to my cousin.

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about something that happened in generations before us. And they're like, really? Nobody's ever told me that before. And I was like, oh yeah, now you know. I think the other thing for me too was I was trying to keep this career on track. So I was really, and I kept asking for more flexible work arrangements. It was working at home, then it was different hours of the day, then it was fewer hours during busy season. And so I think there was this also desire that I needed to hold it together.

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because I was the one paying the bills. So there was an external pressure, whether that was real or not. So I wasn't confiding really in my coworkers either throughout. Now, towards the end I did, and then it was sort of the support of like, hey, this isn't good for you. It would be good to leave. It wasn't like I was actively doing, here's what I'm navigating, because I was trying to keep everything sort of together.

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Was the work fulfillment an escape at all? I know you were working remotely, so it makes it a little bit harder for it to be an escape, but was the work piece the savior at some point? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because it allowed my brain to be productive, right? So I did have an outlet. I had a productive outlet. It was very deadline driven, right? So there was like this pressure of like, okay, checkbox, check, check, check. I was good at it, you know, and somehow.

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Like looking back, I'm like, how did I do that? Because sometimes it was working at two in the morning or it was, you I would still have to do things that were through the night. Were you moving up to? Were you like getting promoted and stuff? I was. And so I was really fortunate. had a really amazing group of women who supported me because some of the requirements to advance I needed to do in-person training and I couldn't do that. And so they homeschooled me. Like they came to my home.

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We met for coffee and walked me through the training. So I had really amazing people that really allowed me to continue to advance. So I was, I was still advancing. This six-month experiment turned into a five-year adventure that I think was pretty successful and thankfully allowed me to still have those resources then that continued beyond that. Well, I I also ask that because I think if you weren't,

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hitting marks or you weren't getting promoted, I think the circumstances could have been that much worse in your own mind, right? Because you don't have that escape of like, this is where I'm doing well, this is where I'm doing well, this is where I'm doing well. From a type A mind talking here. I feel like was very much like my life was hard in my 20s and 30s, but I was.

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getting promoted all the time. people on the outside were like, oh, look at him, look at him. They didn't really care. But in my mind, I was thinking people were impressed. So that kind of kept me OK, if you will. Yeah. Yeah, definitely part of that for me. I get it. I mean, I'm glad that you have that little bit of an escape too, because it could be dangerous in your own head if you didn't have that piece. But why don't you bring us closer to that life shift moment for you? Yeah. And so.

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was just trying to understand because I wasn't necessarily completely open with everybody on what I was feeling or thinking. I did a lot of kind of secret research at the library. I kind of look at books and like, what can help me understand what I'm navigating here? And I would look at different books and some of them I'm like, okay, this feels like, you know, some of what I'm experiencing. But there was this one book, I can't even remember the name of it anymore. But it had this like red cover. And I remember looking at like the first page.

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and it had this quote and it said, what would your life look like five years from now if you don't make a change? And I remember just, I don't even know if I continued reading the book. To be honest with you, I don't remember, because it was sort of like that experience you talked about where it was, oh wow, I've been trying to keep this everything together, but I'm ignoring the cost of staying.

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I was already at my breaking point. I had already broken down. I was already not okay mentally. And so that thought honestly was sort of this moment of it really doesn't matter why or how the complexity of our situation is where it is. I can't stay. Like it's not okay for me. And that was sort of that first shift that I needed to.

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to say, then how do I actually untangle myself from this situation? And it ended up being like untangle myself from the web of guilt, right? That was like accompanying that. But it allowed me that forward momentum for myself, because even if people were saying, this isn't good for you, I needed to feel that myself. That allowed me to then take action and start to seek more external help through therapy.

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through legal advice, right, through all of that of how do I navigate this situation for myself. But that was that moment for me. Yeah. And it's so fascinating how like a collection of words can be a catalyst like that. I mean, I've talked to many people about how they read a book for like the second time and a certain sentence stuck out that second time that became like that trigger and

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You you probably thought it all along, but you needed to see someone else say it. Yeah, I needed the external validation a little bit like it's OK. It's kind of like remember when you were kids and your parents would say something, but then if like someone else that you respected in a different way said it like, oh, yeah, now I get it. because I think that we tell ourselves some things I'm sure you had thought about five years from then. What would it be like if you

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didn't do anything, would you still be in the same situation? But to see it in black and white on paper in front of you can trigger you to be like, oh, that's true. I should probably start taking some action. how, from reading that, how soon after did you start, like, really taking serious steps to find your own happiness or untangle your guilt or whatever it may be?

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s probably like the summer of: 2009

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we need a diagnosis. And so I actually went to a doctor and pretended I was the patient so that I could convince him to come to my house and see my spouse and figure out what was going on. And thankfully he agreed and we were able to get a diagnosis. And as part of that conversation, he also gave me the name of a therapist. And so it was sort of that trajectory.

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that I called the therapist and he sort of got me in right away. And so it was, I think we were meeting like weekly in his office. So I would time it when I could leave the house. And he challenged me gently, because it was like a lot of like, I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can do it. Like, okay, but let's unpack that. Probably over a six month period, I think there was probably six months of weekly visits. And then I started to actually realize, okay.

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it's time to leave and how do I set myself up for that next chapter. Was that your first time in therapy? Yes. Okay. Was that a challenge for you to share openly? Yeah, it was because again, I think I had shame, right? There was shame in verbalizing what my experience was and there was so much guilt, right? So it was, but he was encouraging. And so that helped me realize that I wasn't crazy.

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because I felt this like something's wrong with me and it was like, no, this is just not good for you and let's reframe it in a bigger picture. Yeah, I asked that because therapy was like so foreign to me until I found it and then I was like, oh, this is hard. But also once you find the right one, it sounds like you found someone that you kind of worked well with right away or at least felt comfortable enough right away. I mean, it took me like, I think five,

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tries, the fifth therapist was the one that felt most aligned. And once I found that, if everything started to unlock and like unfold and she was a help in kind of pushing me through the grief journey that I had been on for decades. So I ask about therapy because it's for people like us that want to succeed or we want people to like us or we want

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We don't want people to judge us in a particular way. Therapy can be very scary, especially if you're about to tell them something that you've already built up in your head is a failure or you feel bad saying out loud. So I'm glad you did it though, because I mean, that seems like that was another push or really the unlocking. It was the unlocking. And like you said, right, I had my friends and family that were maybe telling me things, but I needed.

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a different person to sort of be like, okay, let me process this. And I did. And it gave me courage. It gave me courage. And also it sort of shifted my needs and my wants and my mental health matter too. Because I think I was sort of in this, I'll be the selfless martyr, right? And that I had to sort of relearn that no, no, my life is important too. And do I want to stay in this relationship?

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So it sounds like the therapist wasn't telling you to leave, he was telling you to listen to what you need or to identify maybe what you actually need. and set some boundaries, right? Like it's okay to set some boundaries about what's okay and not okay. And that was something that was new for me. Don't you find it fascinating that we feel like we're fully formed humans out into the world doing stuff and then someone's like, here's how you can be like a complete human to do the things that you need to do. I felt the same way, I was like, oh.

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Oh, wow, I'm allowed to think that? And they're like, yeah, you can think whatever you want. Yeah. That's where the 30s and 40s are like, oh, OK, this is how it works. We don't really know in our 20s sometimes. Do you think you felt like a different person after opening that book? Do you think and then a different person after kind of going through therapy for a little bit? Or do you think when you were finally able to tell your spouse that that this is what's going like, where in that journey do you feel the

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biggest difference between 20s, Jen, and then this newer version of you. Yeah, and it's interesting because it was right after my 30th birthday. So I was 30 when I started. So 20 year old married, right? 30 year old sort of leaving. I think the moment where I probably felt that biggest difference was the day I actually left. And I had started to prepare, like I found an apartment and I started furnishing it.

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started opening new bank accounts, right? Like we were, had to sort of like start these things under cover. It was all undercover. And then there was a situation that escalated and I didn't feel comfortable. And thankfully I had a place to go to and I left. Like I sort of escaped, right? I was like, okay, this is the moment where I don't feel safe anymore. And, and I left and

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And the phone is ringing, right, as I'm trying to drive down the freeway to my new apartment, and I'm not answering the phone. And I didn't answer the phone. Right? And that was something I was like, I gotta answer the phone, right? It doesn't matter where I'm at, like what, what he needs me. And I was like, Nope, Nope, not answering the phone. And then it took a series of probably a month or two of like going back, still helping him, you making meals. Cause I didn't, I, that guilt just doesn't go away.

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Right. And there was a transition to care that I was trying to support. But then there also came a point where was like, he was like, you've left, like, why are you coming back? And I was like, why am I coming back? Right? Like, what am I doing? And then, and then I sort of never went back, so to speak. But there was this moment of like, I've broken that tie and then a little ripple and then now I'm really done. And then there's still a processing obviously afterwards, but it was like,

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That was the next probably shift. Yeah. it's so do you when you tell your story, do you think, oh, why did I do that? Or are you still like understanding of that version of you? And that might be a really rude question, so I don't know. I can understand it like I think when people hear my story, like I think they appreciate that honesty. And when they reflect that to me, I think there's like like maybe there's something I should have.

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not felt comfortable recognizing that, right? Because I think I'm just really honest that it wasn't easy to give up or to walk away completely. And I think from the external, I think people might've thought it should be easier or it's more clear cut and it just wasn't for me. And I think my situation was unique because there was a volatility and a chronic illness. So it was hard to know like what was driving that volatility.

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So I try and give myself just a lot of grace, because I can now looking back say, I don't, mean, part of me, yes, wishes I could have left a little bit earlier and maybe there would have been different repercussions from that, but I left when I was ready, I guess. No, and that question wasn't to push you one way or another. I think I look back on certain decisions that I made when I was deep in a grief period or deep in a depression or wherever.

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whatever part of the roller coaster I was on and I'm hmm, if I had the opportunity to do that again, I think I might've done it a little differently. And I get stuck sometimes putting a little shame on myself for the way that I did certain things. And that's okay. I I'm a human, so I'm gonna feel certain things and I'm gonna feel that way. And so just curious if you look back and you have certain feelings about that, but it sounds like you feel confident that that was the journey that.

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that you were meant to take in the way that you did it or in the way that you got out of that situation for yourself? Yeah. I mean, I wish I had left earlier. Do you think it would have been possible? I don't know. I don't know, to be honest with you. I think I had been trying and I had thought about it and there had been some different moments earlier. But I think I needed the diagnosis, be honest with you, because that made me feel like I at least completed.

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It was like my capstone. Like I found you a diagnosis. I can't take you to the next journey But I got you here and so I think if that had happened earlier Maybe that would have shifted things but I needed to feel for myself right or wrong that that I had helped support that I mean I think that's all a product of how you grew up the the circumstances you were in the environment that you Navigated towards and how you know, I think all the things that you formed growing up I think if you were a different person, maybe you'd do a different thing. But yeah

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You knew what you needed to do to feel comfortable enough. And I'm sure the therapist helped with this. I'm sure, you know, seeing that other people have gone through similar things and have come through on the other side, OK, or doing very well is also a helpful validating feeling that like life won't be over. If you choose to leave, you can do this on your own and you will be happy again. So I think all those pieces play into it. It's I often play the sliding doors moment.

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I don't if you've ever seen that movie. Yeah, I love that movie. Me too. But I think it's because my first life shift moment was such a sliding doors kind of situation. Like it was a motorcycle accident. Had she left, so I always play the games, like had she left a day later, she wouldn't have been in the same spot, you know, like, and all those things. I think back into like how, I mean, it's probably a dangerous game to play for the human emotion, but at the same time, it's a very interesting one and it's hard to not go down that road. Yeah.

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I wasn't trying to point or guilt you for any feelings. not to do too many regret moments because it's all... What can you do? It all led me to this point, right? like, here am. can't change it. I can't. No, and I think it's a learning experience too because now you know what you needed to do in those particular moments and then you do better in similar circumstances moving forward. Hopefully not the same experiences, but the way you feel could be in a different experience, right? So I think...

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If we can get to the place where we're lucky enough to reflect on those and how we did it and how we might want to do it a different way next time, I think we just become better at being ourselves and trusting ourselves and creating the boundaries and all the things that came along with it. 100%. Yeah, you learn too in your body what doesn't feel good. And if you can pay attention to that afterwards and sort of be like, okay, I don't even know why I'm not feeling good, but that's just telling me this is a no. Like it's just a no. Then it just gives you a different source of wisdom.

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to tune into. So when you got out and you felt like it was done, what did life start to look like for you? Was it all sunshine and rainbows? How did life start working out for you? It was a perfect sunshine rainbow unicorn. Perfect. So I spent a year still in California and kind of was adjusting to learning myself again, to be honest with you. I didn't know.

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had a hard time making decisions because everything was sort of analyzed. And so I was like, do I want to go visit my family? Do I want to spend my money on this? Like, is it okay? Like I just had to sort of re learn. And again, I got married at 20, right? So I had never really had this independent adult experience. You know, I lived in the college dorm for a year, but that's not quite the same. And so I'm trying to like figure out life, right? Living on my own in an apartment.

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bending time with friends, starting to date again, right? Like just kind of exploring that. And so I had this really amazing year of roller coasters, navigating that in Seal Beach, California. And it also just healed me because I lived like three blocks from the ocean. And so I could walk to the beach. That gave me sort of the courage to say, okay, I'm kind of ready for a new adventure. And I was still employed, right? Still doing my corporate career. And so I had been doing that now for eight years. And so I was ready for something different.

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And I had a bunch of different opportunities. And the one that really like felt like home for me was New York City. And so I had this opportunity to move to New York City for three years to do this rotation in a different group. And, and I, and I did it. And I moved, you know, cross country, sold my car, you know, move into this place. I know nobody. And that was sort of the beginning of this really beautiful next chapter where I found dance again.

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This time it wasn't the ballet studio, it was ballroom. But I started to open up my creativity. I started to really embark in this, my passions, right? Because everything was so black and white for so long, I was living life in color. And that doesn't come without challenges, right? When you're starting something new, I you're really outside your comfort zone. But it was this really, really beautiful three years that...

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helped me figure out who I was again. So it's almost like just reconnecting with my 19-year-old self who was there. You were living for yourself for the first time in a while. Yeah. And it was just really beautiful experience where I kind of had to experience my dreams in a different way. Yeah. No, mean, I think that it makes total sense because you spent 10 years living your life for someone else, essentially. And now you have this opportunity, which I'm sure is scary at times. And it's funny when you were saying,

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your analysis paralysis moments of like, should I do this or that? Meanwhile, I'm thinking of the version of you when you show up for work, making all probably making all these huge big decisions like, I know what to do here and know how to make that decision. then in what we really want is where we struggle like, should I do this or that? And it's like, whatever, what do you want to do? And you're like, wait, but that's not black or white.

35:26

Like there's emotion involved in that. Well, and it's easier sometimes to just follow the path, right? Because it's like, here is the path laid out for you. Like you said, right? It's like, okay, this is my order. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Where when you're kind of more in like, how do I want to live my life or how do I want to craft it? How do I want to design it? Like that's a blank sheet of paper. And so it's like, where do you start? Right? Like somebody give me a template, right? Like where's my template? And so that was sort of

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this sort of experiment too of like, and I did other things, right? I was taking Italian classes and writing classes and I was like, what are the things that are interesting me? So you were just throwing the spaghetti on the wall of like the things you can do now because you had no one else to answer to but yourself essentially with your traveling. Like I think I went to 30 countries in like three years. I was like, all right, where, where do I want to go? And five countries a year. Let's go. It was just, I was just so hungry.

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What did you learn most about yourself in that adventure, if you will? It is totally an adventure. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest lesson that I learned was trusting my intuition. So I knew at 20 that I didn't want to get married. And I ignored that. And I knew I ignored that because I didn't have the voice to say, I don't want to do this. And so I learned that lesson the hard way and going through sort of this experience and

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traveling and dancing and just discovering myself again, helped me realize like, is it that I want? And trusting my gut on that a little bit. So again, tuning into my body, if something's saying no here, like it's a no. And that's enough. And so I really learned sort of those boundaries. I learned how to say no, right? And just because I don't want to, like, I don't need to tell you some reason that you're going to feel good about like, I just don't want to not available.

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And so that was really big for me because I did not say no for 10 years in that marriage. was like, what do you need? What do you need? before that either. Even before. Right. Exactly. And so it was like, actually, no is a really powerful word. And when you say no, then it allows you to say yes to what you really want to do. And so I think that was a big part of my journey. And then, I mean, you said you are a mom and you're married now. So I would imagine that venturing into that space.

37:46

Was it scary or were you ready for it because you kind of felt I called my therapist again. I was like, I think I'm getting married and I'm kind of freaking out. Like I'm freaking out because I kind of done this before and it didn't work out. he was just so, he was actually really good with each stage of my dating. I was like, I think I met someone and I was like, I don't know what to do. And he would just kind of give me like gentle guides. And he was like, it is normal to freak out.

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when you're engaged, because this is a big commitment, right? And here's what that looks like. But I knew when I met my now husband, like it was a completely different experience. And we also had a longer time to get to know each other. I feted him with as best as I can. Like, here's your 40 questions. know, like, let's really like, here's the things that matter. You know, he honored my boundaries. Like I tested him in those ways, right? And so it felt...

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intuitively like this is my person, but I still freaked out because I didn't want to screw it up. Well, you, I mean, going into it too, you probably knew more of who you were. 100%. And what you actually wanted out of someone. So that's interesting. Did you share any of your past with him so he was fully aware of the... Yeah, I mean, there's things that I probably haven't shared that I don't think he needs to know, but enough to sort of be like,

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So like even like getting a prenup, right? I was like, I need a prenup. And there are reasons for that. And you know, like this is important to me. And he's like, fine. So like, there were certain, you know, elements. But the thing that was ironic is we met sort of on that five year anniversary of that moment with the book. And so I was thinking about that, of like, what did the what was that five year? And that was when we met and became friends. And so like that life, you know, when we

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We were together about a year and a half before we got married. So it wasn't like the longest courtship. And then we had our daughter two years later and now we've been together nine years, you know, so it's almost, I tell them it's almost my longest marriage. Like one more year and then it will be. But it's your happiest. It's my happiest. Yeah. And we're definitely, there's a different level of partnership and honoring, like we're very much honoring each other's needs and passions. And he's been so supportive with my redesign and just all of that. So.

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As you started to go into that relationship, did you find that any of you was kind of regressing back to the old version of you, or were you fully set in this new version? Well, I think it's always an evolution. I would say even before I met him, there was a little of this ebb and flow, right, even through the dance experience. But there definitely were moments I had to check myself and sort of be like...

40:33

Am I following an old pattern with communication? Because communication for me was one that was, am I being honest about how I feel and transparent? honestly, I'm probably still working on that. That's a growth edge for me of completely being honest, but I've definitely gotten better of expressing how I'm feeling and not bottling it down. No, think it's normal. The part that I love is that you kept in touch with your therapist and kept that

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line of communication open because you knew that there was someone that could help or at least listen, right? In a way that has helped you in the past. So it's like having a friend on the line, but also you're paying them through your insurance or whatever you're doing at that particular time. a lot of people, myself, I've done this and I regrettably say it at this current juncture of my life, but I like felt that, you know, I did therapy.

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I got to a place where I was feeling really good and then I was like, graduated. I'm done. And I'm done. And then I was great, but there are ebbs and flows in life. And when you're in the ooh part, it's like, man, I wish I hadn't graduated. I wish I And then it's a challenge to kind of get back into it, because now you have to find someone new or whatever the situation may be. But I love that you kept that communication open and you knew to touch base when you needed it.

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to kind of navigate this better, more fulfilled version of Jen as she operates in this new relationship that you're doing. Yeah, and I think I had a few sessions with him because he did phone consultations while I was in New York. So I could kind of had some periodic touch points. then when I... So I met my husband in DC. So after New York, I moved to DC. And when I was sort of in the senior executive role, I got an executive coach. And so I think that...

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helps them support me through the transition to become a senior executive, to becoming a mom, and I still have a coach. And I have that feeling too, like you do, where I'm like, I don't need it all the time, but monthly I need someone to support me. And so I've just learned like that just needs to be part of my support plan because I need that additional person outside of my family and friends. And so I think that's a fair point of.

42:56

It might look different and maybe the cadence is less frequent, but having that additional therapist or a coach, like it can be more powerful. Yeah, it just helps us. Yeah, I'm just gonna slap my hand now. Just putting it out there for everyone to hear. It's in the works. I have it on my list of things to do. I love it. But no, it sounds like it, but I'm not gonna... Here I am making assumptions again. Are you a more confident person now than you were when you were in your 20s in that marriage?

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For sure. are you still in a analysis paralysis type vibe or do you make better, stronger decisions for yourself these days? I definitely make stronger decisions. Like I said, I think I've learned to tune. kind of I go deep in the analysis. You know, even like yesterday, I spent the whole day like I want to go to California. I need to see the ocean. I'm like, here's all the you know where I'm going to do it, where I'm going to go. All the things.

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And then I just have to step back and be like, okay, what is my gut feel? Where am I energy drawn? Then just do that. And I did that. And I'm like, okay, booked it, like done. And so there is kind of an in and out, right? So I can go deep in and then I step back, but I definitely feel a lot more confident and I tune into my body. Like, I know I keep saying that, but there's a lot of wisdom and just like, how does that feel in my body? If I think about saying yes to that, do I feel this tinge of like, I'm going to vomit. I'm going to vomit.

44:19

Yeah, or I'm like, then maybe I need to in sometimes that's just because you're nervous and you're stretching yourself, but you kind of need to know is it this the like, I'm on the growth edge or I'm at the like, this is a no. And just let it be a no. So you're you know, you're an evolved human in the last 20 years or so. What made you want to write your book? And what is your book focused on? Like, why? Why? Why?

44:45

I know, right? Like three years later, I'm like, oh, yes, that was a lot. Well, I wanted to share this story. So, you know, I felt that I always wanted to share this story and kind of the sort of before and after that we just walked through. I always thought it would sort of be this leadership development book, right? Here's my top 10 tips to live your life fully, blah, blah. And so during the pandemic, I kind of met with one of my coaches and there was a conversation where it was like, hey, I think there's a

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path here for you to be an author. And I had sort of forgot that I like to write. Like I had a blog and I was like, I need to tell my story. And someone had told me like, you're not removed enough from the situation yet to write it. And this was now like almost 10 years removed. I'm like, I'm removed enough now that I can write this story without like crying or, you know, like having a lot of big emotions. And my husband went to Brazil to visit his family and I took

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put my daughter still in school and I took the staycation and I just explored writing scenes and I had so much fun and I was like cracking myself up at these misadventures I had had and these stories and I was like, I need to write this book. And so I joined like a writing, a memoir writing program to provide some like structure and accountability and I just was like driven, right? I was like the to-do list at me, right? Like this is gonna be done by the end of the year. I'm gonna publish it in three months.

46:08

And it was done by the end of the year. It was a very messy first draft and I sent it to my book coach. I'm like, I'm ready to be published. She's like, no, you're not. You need a lot of help. And so then I hired like a developmental editor and we went through the process of like trying to distill my whole life into, you know, something cohesive as a theme.

46:29

And that was an interesting journey because it's your life, you know, not just your writing on display. It's like, why did you make that choice? I'm like, I don't know. And so you learn through that process. And then I found this beautiful publisher I wanted to work with and they accepted me. And so that's been the last year and a half of that, which is in its own journey, publishing marketing, like it's its own beast. And so a month from now, or like, you know, soon in this this world, the

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book is going to be in everyone's hands. And I actually have my final copies that came this week. so it's very, I mean, kind of to our point conversation earlier, I didn't really share this story a lot, right? I didn't talk about it when I was in New York. People didn't even know I was divorced, right? It was just kind of hidden part of myself. and this is my first time really publicly talking about it and owning it as something that is part of who I am.

47:23

And there's value there, I hope, for others through inspiration. So it's been a long journey, but it's been a pretty fun ride. And so I'm just excited to see what resonates and how people see themselves in the story. Yeah. No, I think it's beautiful. I think there's so much power in story to hear someone else's story and be inspired by it, be validated by it, whatever it may be. But I'm curious how a story like sharing your story has changed you.

47:52

Do you feel a change by vocalizing or writing this all out? How do you feel? Well, 100%. And like I said, when I went through the editing process, it helped me connect some dots for myself of, like, you know, I didn't have a lot of mentors growing up. You know, I didn't have a lot of people that were necessarily guiding me in certain ways. And so I kind of made some choices on my own. Right. And so it's like, maybe that would have helped to have some of those mentors earlier. Or here's why that was so complex. Right. And here's, I really had to like,

48:20

dig beneath the surface. And so I felt like that's helped me understand myself better and just give myself some grace. Like there's, I think there's a lot of grace I just had to give myself through this process. And then also realizing that all of our stories matter and that big or small, like it's been really beautiful to see how it's resonated with people. And sometimes it surprised me. I'm like, I actually think I wrote a really good book. You know what I mean? I'm like, actually, I

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actually really good. know, and so I think I just was like, got there where people will say it's raw and honest. And I'm like, Oh, I guess it is because to your point, we're not always completely like unfiltered. And I think I'm pretty unfiltered in this book as much as is needed to, share the story. And I think people appreciate that. So that's been an interesting takeaway of just like the honesty resonates. No, think it does. Because I think we are I mean, as I said before, like we're used to seeing these curated type

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things. And that's not how any of us really live our lives, right? And so this messier, unfiltered, honest elements are the things people are going to gravitate towards because it's not the things that are being curated in the other spaces that we're existing in. I mean, I think it's you said every story matters. It's so funny to me and funny is not the right word, but it's so interesting to me when people will reach out about an episode. You know, I listen to episode from my own

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experience, right? Like I relate to people's stories if they kind of resonate with my own experiences. And so I'm like, yeah, that episode is totally about this. Like in my mind, someone comes to me and they're like, oh my God, when so and so said this, I was like, that's the part. We don't know how our stories are going to affect other people. And it could be it's like you opening that book and seeing those random words put in that order.

50:15

affected how you approach the next days coming after that. So I always am like, if you're ready to share your story, share it with anyone that's willing to listen. Because we don't know who else is overhearing that and how that might make them feel like they're not weird, they're not alone, they're not whatever. I keep saying weird because I talked to some woman on my show before and she said something that I thought I was so weird for thinking in my teens about my dead mom.

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and she had a similar experience. was like, I'm not weird. It's normal. And so I love that you pushed through what you grew up feeling like you couldn't tell everyone all the details. And now you're going to put this out into the world by the time that this episode is out. What is the pub date for your book? April 29. So it's going to be out shortly, I think, shortly after or around the time that this episode comes out. So I mean, I think that's beautiful. You're like,

51:09

releasing it into the world. Does it feel like a release? Do you feel lighter from putting it out? Yeah, I do. so the date is also International Dance Day, which I was intentional with. Sort of like this is this is and I'm going to spend it at my daughter's school. I'm like, she's going to be where we're going to celebrate together. Yeah, there's something really beautiful that's happening. And I think there was a lot of fear and shame and other things right around it.

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through the years, but now I'm like, you know what, this is a beautiful, I'm celebrating, it's a celebration, because even just publishing a book is like a journey in its own, but the courage I feel like that I have in being honest and sharing this, I'm really proud of, to be honest with you. If this version of you could go back to the Jen that was walking up to that library that one day before you opened that book, is there anything you would want to tell her? Oh, that's a good one.

52:02

I would just say take the leap. It's worth it. And I think a lot of times, so I do mention I teach at the University of Denver and I also coach my students. Oftentimes we all just need a little push, like a little push of just you got this, go and do it. And so if you're listening to this and you need to hear like you got this, go and do it, like let this be your sign. Because I have seen transformation with literally me just saying I'm cheering you on, you got this.

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Like people just unleash their authentic self in a new way. And so I think sometimes we just need that little reminder that we got this. And so I think that would have been that message I would share. I always look at that, it's probably my own upbringing, but I look at that as almost like someone giving you permission. 100%. Permission to try to do it. And I think that's so important. And it's not unlike what a lot of people would, that have been on the show before, would say to that.

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pre-life shift version of themselves. So thank you for sharing your story in this way. It's really, I mean, I never could have imagined that I would have these types of conversations, you know, if I look back to that teenage version of myself. So thank you for being willing to do so. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. If people want to get in your circle, find you, find your book, what's the best way to be a part of your world?

53:27

Yeah, so my website has everything. So jentoddling.com, Jen with two N's. And I also have a weekly sub stack, SoulSpark with Jen Toddling. If you want to join my newsletter and stay up to date with all the author musings that are happening or about to happen. So I'd love to connect. Are you on social media for people to follow you? I am. I'm on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. So those are the best ways to connect with me. Jen Toddling and all of those places.

53:55

Well, I'm going to offer this up whether you like it or not. But if there's someone out there listening and they they resonate with a part of your story and they feel like they want to reach out to you and just say, hi, thank you for this, that or the other. I'm going to encourage them to do it. Is that OK? Please do. And if you go to my website and the contact page, there's my email. So you just send me an email and I'm happy to connect and support you. Well, thank you again for sharing your story in this way. And I'd like to thank people for listening to the show.

54:24

If I could tell the eight-year-old version of myself that it was going to be OK, he wouldn't believe it. But I am really proud of the journey that he's been on with this podcast. I kind of let him sit beside me. So thank you for listening. And if you know someone in your life that needs to hear Jen's story, we would love it if you share this episode with them. Like we said, every story is important. And there might be something that Jen said. It might not be a main part of her story, but it might just be something she said that would resonate with the people around you. So we would love that.

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And I think I will say goodbye now. So thank you for being a part of the LifeShift Podcast. I'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Matt.