Two Cultures, One Authentic Self | Jasmin Faulk-Dickerson

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And then there's the folks who judge it immediately. When they hear what I've done or how I've done it to survive, there's immediately the judgment of, you know, she's selfish and she just thought of herself. And so that just kind of unveiled to me as you were asking the question, because the answers all are in the fact that I believed that I deserved better. I believed that I was given the right with the breath that I was given when I was born and the life that is fairly short for human beings.

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that I ought to maximize it. And this came deeper than just like, oh, I just wanted to go and have this like fun, crazy materialistic life. This was on a spiritual level, like I felt like a calling that in order to fulfill the work that I have done, the purpose that I'm here to do, which is lending voice to the underserved or really being a rebel, if you will, had to come at a cost. And so, and that cost oftentimes means that we have to do things against the grain. Maybe we are.

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hurting people in the process. Maybe we are making choices that are not the most peace and love-induced choices, but again, for some they're interpreted as selfishness. So I'll tell you what I did. So for me, it was a lot of in my head, how dare they tell me who I should be? How dare they tell me how I should live? So there was a lot of that, right? Today's guest is Jasmin Faulk-Dickerson. Jasmin is a social and behavioral researcher. She's an author, a speaker.

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and cultural identity advocate who lived at the intersection of two quite different cultures, Saudi Arabia and Italy, until she made her way via an escape from Saudi Arabia to America. This conversation really dives into Jasmin's journey of navigating the complexities of that dual heritage and the internal conflicts that she faced growing up, really balancing the traditional and conservative expectations of Saudi Arabia.

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with the open and expressive atmosphere of her Italian roots, and really just the inside that Jasmin wanted to be her own person and live out loud. She shares how she used her imagination and creativity as a means of escapism, inventing entire worlds as a sanctuary from societal restrictions. But Jasmin's story is not just about coping, it's about the quest for authenticity. She talks about her courageous journey to live a life true to herself, culminating in her escape from Saudi Arabia.

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Her experiences serve as a powerful reminder of the importance of embracing one's true identity despite external pressures, and how that internal strength can truly change your life if you're willing to risk it all. I really enjoyed this conversation and I learned so much from Jasmin. So get ready to be inspired by her and her remarkable story. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Jasmin Faulk-Dickerson. I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is The Life Shift.

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candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever.

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Hello, my friends. Welcome to the LifeShift Podcast. I am here with Jasmine. Hello, Jasmine. Hi, Matt. These are always the awkward parts of the conversation because we've been talking for a few minutes, so I'll be listening. This is just us saying hello in an awkward way. So I'm so appreciative of you reaching out and wanting to be a part of the LifeShift Podcast. It's just really such an honor, so thank you. Absolutely. Thank you for being here and doing the work that you're doing. I'm amazed at the opportunity and the platform that you have.

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so generously offered for stories in a really tender way. So thank you. Well, I will take that. I appreciate that. I tell some times, I tell some people that this podcast is a little bit selfish in its own way because it really started, you know, when I was eight, my mom died in a motorcycle accident. And at that moment, when my dad sat me down and told me she had died, everything in my life had changed. My parents live states apart. I lived with my mom

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I was visiting my dad and everything changed. And growing up, I didn't have the tools or the people around me didn't really have the tools. You know, it was late 80s, early 90s and nobody was really talking about mental health, especially for kids, because kids are resilient and they'll bounce back and all the things that come along with that. And so growing up, I was wondering, do other people have these significant shifts in their lives where everything changed from one moment to the next? And it turns out they have lots of them.

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So it's been a very fulfilling journey because I think hearing people's stories like your story that you're going to share today, there are pieces of everyone's story because we're all humans that we can all relate with no matter how different the actual experiences have been. And so I've just been so honored by people like you. So thank you for the kind words about the show. Well thank you again for sharing also why, what brought you to this work. It's very inspiring. And I know it's been many, many years, but that's...

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that pivotal moment never ever leaves you. So thank you for being so brave and creating a platform for your healing that can also help others. Yeah, I'm honored to do so. And I think, you know, at this point in my life, decades later, I realized that that moment really did change me. If those things didn't happen, if I didn't kind of quote unquote fail in my grief journey in the way that I did because the tools weren't available to me.

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ttle bit about who Jasmine is: 2024

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Yeah, so a lot of the work that I do is actually in identity. It falls under the umbrella, obviously, professionally speaking, you know, do a lot of equity work. And I know that right now the whole world of equity and DEI and all that is a super sensitive topic for many, it's a turnoff. And it is for me too, even though I work in it, for various reasons. Part of the reasons is because it's taken, you know, a turn that not necessarily serves the intended...

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purpose of it, but in other ways also, everything becomes politicized or takes extreme ends. And so I am in that moment, in that threshold of really dedicating the work to serving the larger community, which is not just an isolated group or a one side versus the other, but to sort of create a bridge. So my whole life I've been a bridge because of my multicultural background and we'll get to that in a minute.

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But a lot of what I do is actually speak and I write and I teach, I'm an educator, I do trainings and workshops and they all revolve around a better understanding of our differences so that we can come closer together as a community to be able to really focus on what heals us together as opposed to what separates us and divides us. So I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm also a podcaster even though I'm on hiatus for a little while now, but I'm, you know.

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showing up in a lot of other spaces speaking thanks to platforms like yours. And then I also work at a community college where I do do a lot of diversity work with students and just kind of focus on their journey and their big intersectional spaces. Awesome. Have you been in the education space like at a school for a while? Yeah, so most of my career has been in education. Very, very early on I was in, you know, younger. I taught kindergarten and...

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up to a second grade, but in the last few years, I've been in higher ed. I'm curious, I asked that because I'm wondering if you're seeing a difference in the generations of students that are coming along in the way that they are maybe more open, hopefully, to different identities and openness in that way, or are you not seeing a difference? Yeah, that's a really concerning space. On one hand, it is a beautiful thing to see.

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this shift and this big acceptance in this kind of broader space in which people either are accepting one another or just kind of coming into their own. But it has also created a little bit of a fracture in the community and how we see ourselves because it's created more divisiveness and more, you know, identity restrictions, if you will. So it's both wonderful and challenging at the same time. So yeah, there is this sort of liberation, which is really powerful, but it has also created this strong kind of...

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tribal mentality for lack of a better word or mob mentality. Or even though I'm a big fan of tribes and tribal ideology and tribal identity. So I hesitate to use it in a negative connotation. I know it is used very often. So I'll revert to mob mentality. And that's what we're seeing a lot of. It's tricky. Yeah, we are in a very odd space right now. I felt like there was this trajectory that felt more positive for a little bit and then things kind of.

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are weaving in weird ways and hopefully we'll find a space in which your goals and all those things are achievable, you know, in the most beautiful of ways, because I'm sure you're achieving goals, but you know, like those higher goals that you're able to kind of work towards so that we can realize that, you know, like our differences are cool and we can use them to connect more because those are cool. We don't want to all be the same. I feel like that would be a really terrible experience for most people. And boring. So boring.

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Exactly. I was curious. I was also in higher education for about 15 years and just kind of seeing the evolution of the typical student was very different and the way that the previous years in their school had kind of brought them to the higher education space and seeing how that changed over the years. So I was just curious of your own experience. I know it's not part of the podcast, but No, it's all good. Interesting to see. Talk about it all the time.

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So I'm curious if you could, however you want to do this, this is your space to tell your story. So however far back you want to go, but I'd love for you to kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this major life shift moment or multiple life shift moments, or however the parts that changed your life. Maybe you can paint the picture of who Jasmine was before those. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there have been, and you've emphasized this several time in some of your episodes where.

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we come to the realization that it's not just one pivotal moment. And the older we are, the longer we live, thankfully, we see more and more pivotal moments in our lives. And I think what I'd like to do here today is just kind of give you a little bit of an idea of my background. So I grew up in Saudi Arabia. My father was Arabian and my mom is Italian, born and raised in Italy. And so my father was part of the first generation of Saudi, young Saudi men who were sent abroad to study to kind of build this, for the most part,

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Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He was born in the late 30s, right around the time the latest iteration of the kingdom was formed. And then sometime in the late 50s, early 60s, this group of Saudi young men were sent abroad. And my dad chose Italy, well, he chose architecture and interior design. And so Italy was the destination, as you can imagine being the capital of the world artistically. And so he was sent to Florence, where my mom is from. And so they met their students and he was there for several years and finished his

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r the discovery of oil in the: 1950

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We're also coming into wealth. And so there was a lot of sociological shift happening there. And I was raised during the 70s, 80s, and 90s, which historically, if you look at recent history, is probably the most fundamentally oppressive and repressive time in its history. Today, things are changing in Saudi Arabia. It's opening up, and I know that there's a lot of enthusiasm around that, and that's great. Of course, I'm very happy for that, and I support that, even though I've not gone back and I don't have much of a relationship currently.

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because I've been in the United States 25 years. But during that time, it was really, really challenging and hard for young women. And so my life sort of unfolded during that time of coming of age and being a young woman in a place where I was told that my voice had no value and I was really to be silenced in many, many ways. And I was innately born feminist. I don't know why and how, but I was. And so that's kind of the background, painting the picture of who I am and what I come from.

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Yeah, wow. I mean, that's a lot to go to jump off in different places because your mom, born and raised in Italy, and then she's going to a foreign country to her and now has to adjust, I'm assuming, to the culture and the changes that come with that, right? I think that's how families kind of meld together. But then you came along. And she did it willingly. Sorry to interrupt. No, she did it willingly. She was excited. It was all very new to her and were very different characters.

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For her, it was all very normal. And so you can imagine kind of the shock that my parents experienced when they started to see my own discomfort or my own rebellion or my disconnection. So you were kind of a little bit of a black sheep in that mindset of like you weren't like your parents or you thought differently than your parents. You don't know where that came from, but just kind of born into that. How did it manifest the first time?

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It's really interesting. So I remember being very, very young and knowing that my mom was different because my mom spoke differently, even though she learned Arabic and spoke it fluently. She sounded different. That's impressive. Yeah, it is, yeah. She sounded different, she looked different. And our home was different. Our home smelled like Italian espresso and tomato sauce. Our home was very Italian. And my dad was fluent in Italian, so we spoke Italian at home.

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But then when we went to visit my father's side of the family, it was extremely traditional. It smelled more like incense and cumin. And I say these things not to make them kind of small, but as a child, those are the things you notice, right? The smells, the sights, the sounds. So those were things I was noticing as early as three and four, just the big difference. Now we belong to a community of a lot of also mixed families like ours, and so.

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I could tell there was a difference when we were with them and then when we were with my relatives or when I went to school, which was all Arab kids and Saudi kids. Then we would go to Italy in the summers to visit my family. Then my mom would shed the veil and all the women there were not covered. Those are very obvious things that as a child I could see the difference. Now my mom being an adult that was going into it and choosing it and adapting.

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you know, your reasoning in a very different way. But as a child, I think that's why it felt so odd, is because it was, no one was talking about it, but I could tell there was something there. Do you recall like being young and actually saying something or bringing that up and like being a little divisive, if you will, as a kid? Because kids can be that way. Totally, yeah. So I was a very sensitive child, even though I had a strong personality, but I was also very stoic. And so I would think a lot,

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I had a lot of anxiety, but I didn't talk about it because I was too, again, stoic and proud. When I would share things with my mom, my mom was always very diplomatic in answering, giving good answers and kind of guiding us through sort of this space of like, it's okay to think and process and explore these thoughts, but there's also a reality that you have to accommodate and adjust to or with. And so things like, for example, if...

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It is, and I remember my Saudi relatives, my cousins and my uncles, they would ask us, which do you like more, Saudi Arabia or Italy? I mean, of course, because they'd never been, so they knew we were the kids that would come and go. And I remember distinctly my mom saying, and I know it came from a place of respect for her, but for me, it was a little jarring. She would say, you have to say, I like both the same. And in my head, I was like, no, I like Italy more, but I couldn't say that. So that's a moment where I remember

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being kind of redirected or going to school. And my mom, both my parents telling me, just don't ask too many questions, especially in the classes where you're studying religion and cultural things. And it's just like, it was more, just don't express that too much in public. Don't talk about it. And I understand why. It was a dangerous thing to do at the time. Yeah, well, and it sounds like you were allowed to do that at home though. It wasn't like you were fully stifled at home as well. No, not at all.

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That must be really confusing though too, because you're like, you can be your full self here, but when you go out there, you need to put on your mask and pretend to be who you're not. Totally. And I think that is the root of probably the majority of kids in my generation that are a lot like me that also came from kind of two cultures that struggle with the most. And maybe this is a problem for most of third culture children anyways, just that.

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where you can be authentic and where you have to kind of play this narrative that is more in alignment with the environment. And it's really intense. It's that whole thing that we now talk about in code switching. Yeah, it's very confusing because I'm just thinking of this child going to Italy and being able probably to do whatever you wanted in a way or think however you want it out loud and then having to go home and kind of being...

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shut down in certain ways. I don't even know how you navigate that. How did you navigate that without kind of losing your mind? Or like, I feel like that would be so debilitating as someone that wants to think freely, that wants to do all these things, but yet you know that if you do, there's trouble to be had. How do you, how do you, like, does that, do you hit a wall at some point? You kind of do, but you also create a lot of escapism. And that's the beauty of childhood, I think, is that having that.

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imagination that is endless and has no boundaries. And so I lived in my head a lot. My siblings and I and some of our close friends, we invented a whole world and it had a name and it had characters and we invented a language. So on one hand, the fun piece was that kind of inventing this whole world. But on the other hand, it was me just in my own thoughts and kind of envisioning. And this was also during the time of New Age had kind of slowly and quietly arrived into even into

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some homes in Saudi Arabia and my mom was very immersed in the New Age teachings like Louise Hay and all that good stuff. And so I did a lot of that, just that kind of mental practice of law of attraction and just kind of creating, even if in my head I knew that it was probably going to go nowhere, it just felt good to live there. And then there was the piece of just sort of my artistic heart, which is, this was the time that Michael Jackson was huge, was thriller. And so I would dress up like him in the privacy of my bedroom, because you couldn't do it outside.

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and then just kind of dance and listen to music. So there was, escapism really was the answer. It's like two versions of you, essentially. The people on the outside knew you differently than the people inside your home or inside your smaller circle in some ways. Correct, yeah. At what point does that get too much? Like, how do you, what changes in you to be able to be you now? Because I mean, you now, the way you describe you now.

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would not be allowed back then, you younger you, right? Like you, somehow you still allowed yourself to grow because I think there's a lot of us and maybe myself included, especially as a child, when things were shut down, things were shut down, like for me. And I wasn't allowed to dream in my own self because I think it was like a protection, but it almost sounds like you were like, I could do, you know, like I can.

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I can blow up this part of me in a good way. I can expand because I know how to code switch, I guess. And you explained, I know how to go that way. So how do you get to be you? So this is really, I'm having an aha moment right here with you listening to you ask this question, because here's what I realized. And this is recently, especially having done more of these talks since my book has come out. So the category of people who hear my story are broken into two. One, which is the folks who are like,

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this is so great and there's a lot of appreciation or even admiration, which is not necessary, but there's a lot of positivity coming out of folks who have a lot of empathy and compassion towards people who have had a little bit of a different struggle, right, from kind of the norm. Because this is a very unusual circumstance. I know my life and my story is very unusual. It's not very common. And then there's the folks who judge it immediately. When they hear what I've done or what...

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how I've done it to survive. There's immediately the judgment of, you know, she's selfish and she just thought of herself. And so that just kind of unveiled to me as you were asking the question, because the answers all are in the fact that I believed that I deserved better. I believed that I was given the right with the breath that I was given when I was born and the life that is fairly short for human beings that I ought to maximize it. And this came deeper than just like, oh, I just wanted to go and have this like

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fun, crazy, materialistic life. This was on a spiritual level. I felt like a calling that in order to fulfill the work that I have done, the purpose that I'm here to do, which is lending voice to the underserved or really being a rebel, if you will, had to come at a cost. And that cost oftentimes means that we have to do things against the grain. Maybe we are hurting people in the process. Maybe we are making choices that are not the most peace and...

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love-induced choices, but again, for some they're interpreted as selfishness. So I'll tell you what I did. So for me, it was a lot of, in my head, how dare they tell me who I should be? How dare they tell me how I should live? So there was a lot of that, right? And I would say the shift, the pivotal moment for me was when I literally transitioned from puberty to what there is considered adulthood now, which is when a girl menstruates.

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When a girl gets her period, that's when she officially becomes a woman. And so for me, it was, I knew this, I could hear it. I heard it at school, it was taught just casually because it's part of the culture. And I heard a friend of my mom's who was an Italian woman, also married to a Saudi, loving woman. She's like one of my aunts, adopted aunts, if you will. And I heard her asking my mom, and I was the oldest girl in our little circle of friends.

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I have a brother who's older than me, but in the girls circle, I was the oldest. And I heard this lady ask my mom, has Jasmine become a young lady? Meaning, did she get her period? And my mom said, oh no, not yet. That was it. And that, Matt, was my shift. Because when I heard these two women talk about it, I thought to myself, first of all, how dare they talk about my personal business? Second of all, that means they're waiting for me to go through this big transition, because I'm the first girl of these bicultural

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that's going to now conform to all the expectations of society. And I'll tell you what, I got my period just a few months after that, and I hid it. I didn't tell anyone for an entire year. Good. Wow. A year. A year. Until my younger sister got her period, and then I disclosed it. But that was a shift for me. That was definitely a pivotal moment. Yeah, because you hear it, and you're like, well, what kind of plans do you have for me? Like, because I'm assuming that that's kind of how things are... They're kind of...

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there's a societal way of going after you become a woman at the tender age of 12 or 13 or however old. Well, mine was 10, so there you go. Oh, God, no. I was 10. Yeah. I can't imagine, I could imagine how, I mean, I can imagine how hearing that, you're like, wait. But I want to define my life. I don't wanna do all the, like, were you anti the things that other people were doing? Or were you like, I could do that.

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But... Great question. So I, you know, looking back- Maybe anti is too strong, but like, where you're like, eh. But that's why it's such a, it's a great question because now as the mature adult that I am and the person that, you know, promotes everybody to accept everybody's choices in life, maybe today I'm not anti anything, but at the time I probably was because it was an imposition on me and my choices. So perhaps at the time I was way more anti than I am now.

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I mean, now I'm a lot more neutral about it, but I don't dismiss the fact that it happened and it needs to be talked and needs to be addressed because you can't just bury history, right? Well, and I think of anti more so, not so like in general, but like for yourself, like I don't wanna do that. Like I wanna do this or I wanna be a ballerina or I wanna be Michael Jackson or I wanna be something that other people aren't telling me to be.

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Oh, yeah. And then I was very anti. I was very anti. You are correct. Yeah. I mean, because we're on like growing up in Massachusetts, like I felt like I had four choices of a career, like when I was that age, when I was 10, you know, like I had to be a lawyer or a doctor, you know, like there were like four things that I could be. And I was like, OK, well, I guess I have to choose that. Whereas you were like, no, like the sky's the limit. Now, I just got to figure out how I get to that sky and be able to do that. And then hearing

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someone ask like, okay, when can we start the planning for Jasmine? Because here's, here's how we're going to lay this out. I can imagine how that changed you. Right. And the big, the biggest piece at that time, the closest threat to getting your period was that now you have to start covering, you have to start wearing the veil, the abaya, which is the cape and the head, you know, the head scarf and the head cover and all that. That was the biggest threat at that time, even though for a lot of girls, that's a step closer to even getting married and all of those things.

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That wasn't on my radar, because my parents were very progressive from that standpoint. It was, you're not going to get married young, we're not going to make an arrangement, you're not going to marry your cousins, like all of the traditional practices of how girls get married. My parents were very, very clear on those boundaries, but they were not going to let their young girl who's now post puberty walk around in society not covered, because that was the law. And so...

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That was the big thing for me was making sure that I was avoiding and pushing away as far as I can the whole cover. Because that would hide you and who you were even more so, like in your in your 10 year old mind of like invisible. Now you're hiding me away. Nobody can see me now. Yeah, that's. Yeah, it's an invisibility in every way. Yeah, it's you are you are literally removed from anything that identifies who you are is completely erased.

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Right, and it sounds like that young version of Jasmine, that's like the antithesis of what you envisioned for your life, even as a young child. Yes. Like that's, so how do you navigate that? How do you move through this world to get to be who you wanna be? Well, so when that shift finally happened, I got away with it for a whole year, and I was very skinny, I didn't show signs of development, but my sister got her period, and so then when.

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I had to disclose that I got my period too, because it was a little weird that my younger sister got her period before me. I never told, I never revealed that I'd gotten it a year before, I just said, oh, me too, kind of a month or two later. And, but then, so then, I had to live this life now as a teenager where I was covered. And all I could think of to myself is, I have to find a plan, a way to be able to live freely and as authentically as I can. Now I knew for a fact that

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the choice of husband for the future would have to be a Saudi man. There was no way around that. I couldn't have even imagined telling my parents, well, I'm just going to go to Italy and fall in love with a man there. Or you're going to marry a Saudi man, you're going to build a family here. And it was said very casually and very normally. This is how it's going to be. It wasn't an imposition. It wasn't mean. It wasn't mean-spirited. It was casual. Because in their minds, I think...

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You know, my family. There were no other choices. No, there were no other choices. And I think for them, it was like, this is a great life. Like, why would you not want it? Because in reality, from the materialistic standpoint, it is a comfortable life. You know, you have servants in the home, you have, you know, women, you know, men are obliged to provide for the women. Women are not expected to do much of anything other than being good wives and raising kids and you know, being good women. So

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So for my parents, I think that was just like, this is not a torturous life. This is a very fine and normal existence. And you get to travel, we still get to do those things. And so you don't have to have it all the time. But for me, it was like, my freedom really was tied to my own liberation on my own terms, in my own version. And so I started to think, okay, if I have to get married to a Saudi man, I've got to find this man myself. And I need to find someone that is compatible

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kind of feels the same way I do. Either he's mixed like me or he was raised in the West and has some sense of openness that he would not expect me to be the little wifey that's covered all the time or that doesn't have. And that's kind of what I sought out to do. And I did, I met this young man who was a couple of years older than me and he was born and raised in the States. He was Saudi, both his parents Saudi. And so, I mean, it was a sweet friendship. It was secretive, obviously.

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it was, you know, we had a great time and we would have been the perfect first girlfriend and boyfriend, kind of the great, you know, relationship that you start with. I was 16 and he was almost 18. And so we ended up getting married. You were kind of hedging a little. Pretty much so, yes, yes, yes. Because, you know, at that point I'm like, okay, I know my parents didn't want me to get married super young, but I had to like, I had to have a plan to where I knew that, okay, once that time comes, 18, 19, 20, where, you know.

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People start knocking on the door because those marriages are still very arranged. Families go looking for brides and things like that. So I had this plan. And again, we had a great early, young, youthful relationship. It was very, very innocent until we got married, obviously, because you don't date openly there. You don't spend time together there. It was very, very, very innocent. But we talked on the phone. And I did have eventually the blessings of my mom and my brother because they knew.

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and they knew that we were kind of serious. So that's kind of how the initial plan of me getting some space to breathe, where I knew that I had, I was basically the architect of my life, and I was going to design what path it was gonna take. So you had like a 50% of what you wanted in a way? Yeah. Like, because you were able to like kind of freely think and be yourself at home, but still had to conform.

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So it was like a continuation of your childhood and a little bit of a way. Totally. With the caveat that he felt the same way I did and he wanted to also potentially live abroad or leave that circumstance and that environment in our everyday life and just kind of seek, maybe go abroad and study, finish our degrees or whatever. So he had the same idea is, yeah, it would be great to start a family and give our kids the childhood that he had, which was in the US. And so he wanted that as well.

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But that's not how it went because after we got married in our early, I was 19, he was 21, things started to change because he was spending more and more time in that environment. He had a job, he liked his job, he had his family. So he was becoming more and more ingrained in the culture and in the society. And I was becoming more and more radicalized in my absolutely not, this is not what I want. I was becoming more emboldened and more empowered while he was becoming more conformed. And so that definitely...

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got in the way of our marriage. And thankfully, both of us, but especially me, had the mental recognition that it's not time to have kids until we really feel stable. And so we never had children. But that marriage ended after six years. Wow. Is that something that is culturally OK? Was that another battleground that you had to navigate with a divorce? Well, as a woman, yes. As a guy, as a man, no, not so much for him. I mean, divorce is very rampant there, unfortunately.

33:17

And I say unfortunately, I mean, I'm just, I say unfortunately because it's usually the woman that has less of a choice. It's usually a man's decision. And I think it was obvious to both of us. It was fairly mutual. And so I, yeah, that was, I would say it wasn't abnormal, but it was, but what it meant was, here I was at 25 damaged goods, because at this point, you know, you're a divorcee. You are, you know, you're not super young. You're already in your mid twenties.

33:46

So you're no longer a desirable product for anyone. Right, because you're not competing with, like you told your story of like the first time you get your period at 10. This is like now in your prime, you're a brand new woman. And obviously it doesn't make sense for me. And I guess that's a good thing. The whole time you're telling your story and as you're trying to like navigate or kind of hedge your way of like, how can I be Jasmine? But also conform to what is asked of me.

34:14

Part of me is curious, did you battle any kind of internal depression or things that came along with that? Because I can feel how hard that would be when every time you turn a corner, someone telling you you can't be yourself or how you feel inside. That's a very thoughtful approach. Thank you for that. Thank you for creating space for that.

34:37

The truth is, yes, I had suffered with anxiety my entire life. And I didn't know what it was, obviously, until much, much later when I was in therapy. But anxiety was like a- People don't talk about it. No, not at all. And remember, this is a time and place where none of these mental health issues were even an idea that people even could have imagined. So anxiety was extremely strong in my body, in my psyche. I did. I probably had a little bit of depression here and there, but I think I'm also very

35:07

you know, stubborn and very strong willed that I was like, okay, I'm not going to let this get me down. But the anxiety was extremely debilitating at times. I won't say that I ever got to the desperate point that I felt like I had to, you know, do anything drastic. Thankfully, I was fairly balanced in that way because I don't know, I think stubbornness is a really, it can be a really powerful tool when you're trying to survive. And so I think my stubbornness was really there.

35:35

But I think the hardest thing I will say is the fact that, and I really don't know where this comes from, but I felt a really powerful indignance. Like I was like, I was so indignant that as a woman, I had to accept, adhere and conform to all of this. I just, I could not wrap my mind around it. And I know it made people a little uncomfortable around me or even upset. And now keep in mind, a lot of these thoughts and feelings I kept to myself, but.

36:05

It was obvious that I was a little combative on some things and some topics. Now, the other pivotal moment that happened, and this was right around this time, around the time that I was married, kind of approaching that last couple of years before my divorce, the satellite TV was inside of you, because over there, there's a lot of restriction, a lot of censorship. But satellite TV brought to us the world in more ways than those of us who traveled. And at the time, Oprah Winfrey was huge. And so I was watching the Oprah Winfrey show.

36:35

obviously somewhat secretly because it wasn't broadcast on Saudi TV. This is the 90s when Oprah was really focused on women issues, women empowerment, women who were victims of abusive relationships. I was not a victim of an abusive relationship, thankfully, but I was a victim or I felt like a victim of an abusive environment that was orchestrated in a way that did not give me the freedom.

37:01

So I started to watch Oprah. It literally became like my church, my sermon, whatever you wanna call it, my mosque, whatever, and kept saying to myself, wow, yeah, like I can do this. I can do this. And so that was a really big piece of how I felt like, you know what, I'm just gonna do this, you know, and then plan for my escape once I was divorced. That's like, I can't even imagine, I guess that's a good thing. I can't imagine.

37:29

any of your story, first of all, but I can't imagine getting to a point where I feel so pushed down or othered or whatever it might be that I'm like, no, I'm going to be, I'm going to find a way. Like I, that stubbornness that you described is like probably the best thing that you could, the best way you could describe that because I think so many people would have just acquiesced like, like

37:56

It is what it is, you know, I have to go along. And it's not a flaw or anything. I think that's just like, sometimes we're just so worn out and it was just like, you were like, no way. And now Oprah, which I'm sure you're not the only person that's ever watched an Oprah episode that's like, yes, this is possible. I can do hard things. That's quoting someone else, but you know, you can do these things. And like, I mean, good on you. I mean, congratulations to you for having the stubbornness.

38:27

to having the fortitude to be like, no, I am a full person, and I should be able to be that full person whenever I want, wherever I want. So, I mean, just kudos to you on your just journey of being yourself. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And you know, it's coming now to a point in my life where I'm already, you know, my mid-age, and I look back and I think, you know what? It's okay. It's okay for me to own my strengths and my flaws, the good choices and the challenge.

38:56

challenging choices that I made because again, at the time, and still today, by the way, at the time I was considered selfish and self-serving and any of those things that you want to say. And then today is still that shadow of being called all the names still follows me. And I think the biggest trick is coming to a stage in a time in your life where you say to yourself,

39:22

I mean, what is the reason that pushes people to judge someone else and the choices they've made? First of all, for the most part, it doesn't necessarily impact you directly. These are choices that we're making that impact us, and these are risks we're willing to take. Immediately, people from the outside will assume that, well, because you hurt so many people in the process. Okay, has anyone ever thought of the fact that I was deeply hurt through the entire process from the moment I was born? You know?

39:50

Those are the things I ask myself. I'm like, wow, you know, yeah, maybe they were hurt in the process, but momentarily, once I'm... I didn't even think of that. Right? Once I've moved on... I didn't even think of you hurting other people. I just like, my, the flowers that I am giving you are just the power and the ability to know yourself so well and know what you deserved and what you needed to fulfill...

40:19

whatever your plan is here on this earth was not what the society around you or the culture around you was allowing you to do. And you were like, I'm gonna make it happen because why else am I here? Like, what's the point? I didn't even think of any other people, but I hope that that fades. It sounds like you kind of own the sense of like, no, this was what was right for me. Totally. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And my diving into explaining that piece has...

40:48

absolutely nothing to do with the conversation we're having today. It has way more to do with what I've had to deal with, you know, over the years. I think I'm just adding it to infuse it to the piece of the story to where when we do come into our own the way we do, and I offer this really as also encouragement for anyone who's listening, who's doubting, making choices for themselves because they fear being selfish or because they fear that they're going to hurt someone.

41:12

We are always going to hurt someone along the way, and we've been hurt along the way. We wouldn't be human if we didn't experience these emotions and if we didn't inflict these emotions. Ultimately, I think intention is really important. And when we are making choices and decisions for our own survival, I think a lot of grace and a lot of space should be given. It's not often given. In this particular instance, I will say that for me,

41:37

it was worth making this decision because otherwise for me, it was truly a survival thing. I don't know that I could have continued living life in a way that felt so far from my authentic self. It would have been impossible. It truly would have been impossible. Really debilitating. I don't know how you made it that far, to be honest. I mean, I feel like if I think of my own self, I'm like, wow, protection mode would have like, okay. Yeah, I think traveling helped and dreaming and like just.

42:04

And seeing other possibilities too, I would imagine, by traveling, right? Yeah, exactly. Because I'm sure there are a lot of people around you, or maybe there were a lot of people around you that had a little bit more of a shelter because they didn't come, oh, well, you said you were around a lot of other mixed children or mixed cultures. Yeah, so I saw both sides. I saw the kids who were like me. And now in my circle of friends, some of them were just like me, where they had the same restrictions and limitations. And others had parents who were definitely a lot more.

42:31

willing to go even against the societal norm and allow for some freedoms for them. So I saw that too, and I envied that. I was like, wow, they're in the same exact boat I am in, but they have a little more autonomy in the workspace. It probably helped seeing all that. Probably did, yeah. Yeah, so how did you find your way to get out, to be able to be you? Yeah.

42:58

So after that divorce, my first marriage, I in the meantime was starting to plot my grand exit and my escape, if you will. Because at the time, women were not allowed to leave without permission from a guardian male because as women in Saudi Arabia at the time, and in some other very fundamentalist Islamic countries who practice Wahhabism specifically, which is very, very conservative and very, very fundamentalist, you had to have a guardian for everything you did.

43:27

anything you did as a woman, you had to have a guardian. So at the time I was divorced, so my guardian reverted back to my dad from my husband because depending on who the primary man in your life is, that's your guardian. And so I needed permission to leave. And so I couldn't just like say, hey, I'm okay, I'm done here. I'm taking off. Now, you know, my dad was, like I said, very progressive in many ways, but in other ways, there was still that stigma of society and, you know, and upholding this standard and being, you know, a good

43:56

citizen and doing all the right things. And so he would not have been thrilled about, you know, me even asking, let alone granting me that. And I reiterate, my dad was a really kind and gentle, sweet, educated man, but I fully appreciate the pressure he was under to be, again, the upstanding citizen that he really tried to be. So of course, you know, the choices I made, you know, hurt him or brought on...

44:23

you know, grief and all of that. I recognize that, I understand that. I don't need people to remind me of that because, you know, they kind of try to very often. So I understand that, but at the same time, it was a survival piece for me. And I had to answer to myself and the life that I had and the choices that I could make. So I, you know, I orchestrated this escape and I do go into detail in my memoir about it. But basically I did, I found a way to where I could.

44:49

traveled to Italy, which was a place my dad had no problem with me going to visit. My aunt was very, very sick actually at the time and was really on her deathbed. Her older son, who was my cousin, closest relative of mine, he's like an older brother, I told him everything that was going on. In the meantime, while I was planning all this, I also met and fell in love with an American man there. He knew that I was leaving, he was working there.

45:15

He decided to also leave and he said, you know, we can just go together and start a life together. My original plan was to go to Canada where I have a very dear childhood friend there. And, you know, she's also a big part of the book, but then when I met him, I was like, okay, well, maybe I need to make some changes here. And so very creatively, I got, you know, those permissions, the letter, the visa and all of that. And that's when I left. And when I arrived to the United States, I told my dad that I was.

45:43

coming here on vacation with my Italian cousin, which is how we got that permission. But then I said to him that, you know, I found a school I'd like to continue. And my dad was big on education. So I kind of bought myself time to stay in the US, figure out what I was gonna do so that my dad also didn't feel like I had to be back in a couple of weeks. And just kind of in an easy and soft way unfolded the information to him so that it wasn't abrupt.

46:08

It didn't go great at the beginning, but eventually he came around and it was... It just was. Did it feel like... And forgive me for... This sounds wrong, but did it feel at the time like you were on a grand escape? Like you were plotting some kind of movie in which you were... Each dot had to go perfectly. Did it feel like that?

46:34

Yes, because up until I left, no Saudi woman had successfully left Saudi Arabia safely. Either if she had left, she left with the blessings of her family, which was common. I'm not saying I'm the first woman to leave. There were women before me who left with the blessing and the letter and all of that from their dads. But for a woman to leave against the will of the father in the country and whatever, that had never happened. Anytime that attempt had been planned, women often got caught.

47:04

And they did not end very well because they had really difficult traditional families. I knew that if I had gotten caught or if my dad knew, it wasn't going to be the worst thing. I mean, he'd be disappointed. But I knew my family wouldn't hurt me. The government maybe wouldn't have handled it very well at the time. Again, things were very, very different. But absolutely, I was terrified till the last moment. But I kept telling myself, I am divorced, I'm damaged goods. There's not much I have here as far as choices in my life.

47:34

I will either end up being a second wife to some rich older man, or I will live in my parents' home forever and get a career and just work. So my choices were very limited. And at that point, I thought, you know, this is a risk worth taking if it meant my complete freedom. Yeah, it was survival. I mean, it really was. It was survival of your soul, if we will. Like, this is like, this is Jasmine's chance to, like, let her soul breathe and live and, like, get there. I just...

48:03

I had to ask that question because in my mind it feels very like, I mean, the word escape just kind of brings on those ideas. And then you were able to be here. But I love that like you have this forethought of like, how can I also kind of protect my dad in a way of like soft landing, soft, you know, like rolling out the information because that shows your compassion as well because it wasn't like you were running from him or your family. You were just...

48:30

running to be you. Exactly. And like this was how you got there. Yeah, that's beautiful. Running to be you, I love that. That is very true. Cause I wasn't running away from something as much as I was running towards something. I was running towards my own authentic self or my opportunity. And again, that doesn't mean that my life has been perfect or that I've accomplished all the greatest things that maybe I...

48:59

People who imagine this level of freedom would allow I literally all I wanted in life was the freedom to be able to walk down The street not necessarily, you know unveiled not covered be able to walk my dog to the park or take my kids to the park Or you know, I wanted a normal life I was not looking for anything that a lot of people assume women from oppressed environments go looking for which is maybe more of a

49:22

sexualized freedom, which again, good for them if that's what they're looking for. And to achieve it, that's fantastic. Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's always that accusation that this is what women are looking for. They're looking for this liberation to have this like very, very open and corrupt life. You know, these women are looking for this. If they want to. Totally. I mean, I agree. I agree. Good for them. And you know what? And more power to them. You just wanted to wake up and go get a coffee. Totally. I mean, my freedom was extremely intellectual. I will say that. I...

49:51

It was all in my head. What I was looking for was the ability to express my thoughts, to be able to speak uncensored, to be able to ask the big questions, to be able to have conversations around the evolution of human behavior. That's what I was looking for. And it sounds so boring. It really does. No. But you know. It doesn't. Well, thank you. It doesn't because so many of us, and probably a lot of people listening to this, grew up in every moment we were allowed to do that.

50:20

And so hearing your story and the sense of like thinking of ourselves as like you, but then realizing we wouldn't be able to say so many of those things out loud in front of anyone other than our family or sometimes not even our family, it doesn't sound boring at all. It sounds freeing. It sounds warmer in some way. But I was thinking like...

50:46

that couldn't have happened for you right away. Like the next morning, did you feel that sense of that or did it take months or years or whatever to feel free? Yeah. Totally. What did that look like? At first it was very, it felt very, well, it felt scary, right? Because now all of a sudden- You think you were gonna get caught or something? Oh yeah, you always look, you know.

51:08

is someone behind me, you know, if you're taught, of course. And I ended up in Wyoming, which I knew it wasn't like New York or D.C. No one's going to find me in Wyoming. It was like almost like the what is it? The witness protection program. But but I ended up in Wyoming, which is a fantastic place to land, a beautiful, peaceful place to really find yourself and very gently, you know, be able to to ingrain yourself in society in a really nice way. Went to a community college there, which was great. And so that piece was really sweet and soft.

51:38

t drive in Saudi Arabia until: 2018

52:04

To be expected to go do all those things for yourself was extremely scary. Even though my personality was not a fearful one, I don't like to come across as like not knowing or to come across as ignorant. And when I was younger, it was harder. Now I have no problem saying, I don't know, tell me. But when you're younger, you're a little more proud and your pride is in the way. And I did not want anyone to ask me questions like, why don't you know how to do these things? Why are you learning how to drive at 25?

52:33

Because I didn't want to tell him. Is there a shame? Shame, you know, trying to hide, trying to leave it all behind. For the longest time, I didn't even want to disclose. I came here as an Italian immigrant. I was Italian. I leaned only into my Italian identity. I didn't want a lot of attention around my story because I didn't do any of this for attention. And you're right. And then there's the fear. And there's also the shame of not wanting to share.

53:00

things that may then be interpreted in the wrong way. But I had to come out of the closet after 9-11, which was the most horrific episode in our modern history that we can remember. You know, 9-11 caused immense tragedy and trauma and pain here in the United States. The victims that were lost, I mean, it was all such a horrible tragedy. And to think that a big piece of that was, well, not a big piece of it, it was by cause of the very

53:30

supposed people I came from. And that's not to say that that is who they are. That is absolutely not who they are, but that's who they became. You know, 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi. You know, they were all Muslim. I was raised Muslim. I don't practice any religion now, but I was, you know, so these were my supposed people. And so at first I wanted to distance myself from it, but then I started to hear so much ignorance around the interpretation of who those people were, who these lens are.

53:58

or what these lands are. And there was just such ignorance around it, sadly. And it's not out of malice. It was just sheer ignorance. And so I felt obliged, I felt responsible to be able to be, again, the bridge that I was talking about, to help people understand the people are wonderful people. This is still a very, very rich and ancient culture. So I tried to work on, you know...

54:24

setting aside my traumas and my own story to be able to just kind of talk a little more honestly and a little more neutrally about the facts so that people could not necessarily jump to conclusions and paint brushes. It was hard. It was hard. Did that, although did building those bridges help you in your own like acceptance of some of those things as well? Because I mean, I think it sounds like it could. Oh, very much so. Yes.

54:51

Absolutely. I think my healing came through that because I was definitely forced to face all of the realities. I was forced to face myself. And at that time, I was also pregnant with my firstborn, who technically is my second child because I also have an older bonus son. And so I was full on mom now and I had to be honest in how I raised my kids. I couldn't deny them part of their mother's history. And so...

55:19

so much healing came through that. And then I was also given the opportunity to teach classes at the University of Wyoming, where they were classes that just kind of opened up an understanding of the Middle East, an understanding of the region, an understanding of the religion. So that was extremely healing as well. And my intention is never to go into spaces and criticize anyone. When I speak of my story, that's my journey. But when I speak of regions as a whole, I always say,

55:48

You know, addressing human rights violations is one thing, and it's very important no matter where in the world we're talking about these things. But when it comes to culture and cultural practices and norms, I think spaces and places need to be given the time they need to go through their own evolution. And even though that whole region, that whole Middle Eastern region is seeing incredible progress, let it be on their own terms. The imposition from the West oftentimes in those spaces...

56:17

creates far more damage than it does good. I say this from experience because when I was growing up there, the 70s and 80s initially were a little tough and there was a lot of internal reasons why the oppressive religious movement came about. But the biggest threat came when the United States landed there, not just for the oil but also as a military presence. It definitely aggravated those religious people. It's kind of a double-edged sword.

56:45

I'm of the idea that unless there's human rights violations, which there often are, interference from the West should only be to protect human rights and not to force people to conform and change. Absolutely. Yeah. Because I can imagine if someone's coming and force you to change, then you're just going to stick to your guns even harder. Not literal guns. Makes it worse. Yeah. You're going to stick in the mud and you're going to hold on tighter.

57:12

to all of those things rather than evolving, like you mentioned. So I can see that. And I think part of the reason of me asking the question about did the bridge building heal you, because I think it helps you see that the environment that you were in was okay, if you will, but it wasn't okay for you. Yes. It wasn't okay for who you wanted to be, who you dreamed to be.

57:39

And if there was a way for you to be you, you couldn't do it there. And it sounds like, you know, by explaining that to other people and like saying like, this is the culture and this is why the culture exists in this way and this is why people do it this way. And so many people actually like doing this. And it just wasn't where my soul wanted to be at that time because I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do. So I can imagine how that could be a healing journey in its own self. A hundred percent.

58:07

100%. I mean, you hit the nail right on the head. That's exactly it. The healing is for ourselves. And if the healing is genuine for the purpose intended, which is our own liberation and our own authentic selves, it really should not have any, there should be no need to impose any radical change anywhere else. I have no interest of imposing any radical change anywhere,

58:38

to me and people like me who need to find their own authentic selves and be given the right to live that life for themselves. Yeah. Yeah, and I would think maybe when you were in your process of escaping, there was more anger held there in that part because you had to, like had to fuel you to get you out. But then having the time to reflect and be like, okay, well, it just wasn't the right fit. Right. Like it just, we just, we just didn't mesh well together in this space. I think it's so fascinating.

59:06

Do you see yourself as a different person now because you can live out loud or do you still feel like the same Jasmine? Oh, wow. Okay, so this is interesting. In some ways, I definitely feel like I'm still the same Jasmine. In other ways, I feel like I am a completely different person. And I will say that as much as the change has come from that bridge and the healing from that bridge, like you so beautifully highlighted,

59:35

While a lot of that healing and that growth happened due to the evolution of experience and the evolution of time and the reflection, a lot of it also comes, well, first of all, age will do that. And if age doesn't soften you, I don't know what will. On one hand, it softens you towards the world. And on the other hand, it makes you like, I don't care anymore. And it gives you like this shield of like, truly, I don't care. If we're lucky. Well, I recommend menopause for that.

:: 00:04

But the other piece that comes with that is this. In many ways, when we are going through this evolution and when we're going through this change, we look around and we realize that many of these challenges exist everywhere. So even though I left something that was really a boundary for me or a barrier for me, I got on the other side. And...

:: 00:28

In our youth, we really seek to be rebellious and have an activist spirit. And kind of the aggression of being able to survive through that metamorphosis is crucial. But when you get on the other side, or you get to the other side, and you get to the place that you're now feeling like, okay, I've achieved kind of the big things, you soften a little bit and you become an advocate. And I speak to this very, very often, the difference between an activist and an advocate.

:: 00:57

So now, you know, my life now as an advocate is to find the spaces in which we can compromise and find a common ground. And no time more than now do I feel it because these threats are happening even in Western societies, even within the United States. You know, I'm living in a time now where much of my agitation and the need to have these conversations and to continue to push for this work is not just because of my story and my past.

:: 01:27

It's literally because of what's happening right before my eyes here in, you know, in the United States and in Western societies. What about if this Jasmine, 2024 Jasmine, could talk to the one that was overhearing her mom's conversation with the neighbor or your adopted aunt, if you will, what would you say to her about this life that you're living now? Wow. Oh, well, I would say definitely,

:: 01:57

believe in yourself and be patient, because patience is not my strength. So I would say definitely be patient and believe in yourself. And I would say shed the shame, because I think shame really debilitates us. And it's usually this shame is, we don't even recognize it as shame, we see it as guilt. I think guilt and shame are, they're married to each other. They can't exist without, you know, one without the other.

:: 02:24

I think on the surface we think it's guilt because we feel like, you know, I feel guilty if I do this, but deep inside where it comes from is this voice that really has built this shame inside. So I would really encourage her to just say, you know what, I don't care. It took me a long time to get to the point where I now say, I don't care. And I say it not as elegantly as I don't care. I say it a lot more aggressively than that. You know, and it's funny too, because I asked this question of others and sometimes it's like, I don't know if that...

:: 02:54

version of me would listen. But I think I kind of think that younger version of Jasmine would listen because I think she was like, no, this can't be all that there is. I need to find the way to find myself and live fully out loud. So I love that you've found the space. Of course, there's barriers. Of course, there's still things that you're going to face that are not beautiful and wonderful even here in this world where you're allowed to live as much as you want to out loud.

:: 03:21

But I'm so, you know, thank you for sharing your story in this way and letting me ask the silly questions if any of them were silly. Yeah, well, thank you. What you just said, it makes me sad to know that some people think that the young person of them, the young version of themselves wouldn't listen. Because after writing my book, the biggest thing that I realized was how damn amazingly strong I was as a child or as a young person. And I think all of us have that. You have that. I mean, you've been through an extremely traumatic event. So.

:: 03:50

That was the big revelation. So I recommend that people really reflect and maybe even write a little bit, even if just for themselves. You'd be impressed with the young person that you were. Yeah, I'd like to think that. I think through some of these stories, I think some of those children maybe wouldn't listen because everything seemed so far-fetched in a way, like how is that even possible, even in yours? But I just feel like the way you describe the younger version of yourself, I just think she'd be like, got it.

:: 04:18

I mean, take that note, let me move with that. If people wanna like read your memoir, find you, get in your space, like what's the best way to get connected with you, Jasmine? So the best way to find me is probably my website. It's all one word, jasm And I'm guessing you have the spelling of my name correctly. And so that's on my website, everything is there. My book is on the website. Currently it's been...

:: 04:42

did really well on Amazon, it sold out, it hasn't been back for a while, I think it's back ordered or whatever. But the best place to find it would be through the publishing company directly, which is BookBaby, that link is on my website. I'm very active on Instagram, that's probably also a place where folks can find me, that's jasm I do have a YouTube channel, I'm kind of working on being a little more active there, my podcast is called I Want You to Meet.

:: 05:07

But yeah, find me on one of those socials. And I love hearing from people, by the way. I really do love it. I try to respond to everyone as best as I can. I love it. I will share all those links so that people can find you easily. That's the best thing about podcasts, just open the show notes and just click the, well, that's not the best thing. That's a great thing about podcasts, is being able to click into it. And I encourage you, if you're listening and something that Jasmine said resonated with you, reach out to her and connect with her.

:: 05:33

see what's going on in her world. Or if there's a person in your life that needs to hear this story, we'd love it if you share this episode with them, because it's not necessarily they're going through the same experience that Jasmine had, but I think a lot of people have had the feelings that you've had and felt a certain way and felt like they couldn't do certain things. And maybe by hearing your story, they'll have a little bit more confidence that they can. So thank you for sharing it in this way. Of course, I always say our stories are not.

:: 06:00

My story is not common, but the feeling is very common. So thank you, Matt, for having me. I really appreciate you providing the space and allowing me to come join you. I appreciate it. And I thank you for the conversation. It was really inspiring. So thank you for that. If you are listening and you want to leave me a little review or something like that, I'd love that. That would be wonderful. But otherwise, I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the LifeShift Podcast. Thanks again, Jasmine.