Breaking Free: Betsy Pepine's Journey from Boxes to Boundless Joy

Betsy Pepine: 00:00:55

And I was advancing up the corporate ladder. And I was 32 and I had two daughters. They were one and two years old.

I had married my childhood sweetheart and I grew up in Florida, but we were living in Philadelphia. And within a very short period of time, I found myself suddenly single and laid off.

And at the time of my life, I was, I think of it as I was sitting on a three legged stool. My pillars in my life were my marriage, my career, and my children. And two of those legs, you know, release themselves from me.

And I when you're sitting on a three legged stool and two legs go out, you land on the floor. And I did. And it took me, I moved back home. And when people, when I say that to people, they assume, oh, yeah, she moved back to Florida.

No, I moved back into my childhood bedroom and my girls moved into what were previously my sister's bedrooms. Growing up to just figure out a plan.

Matt: 00:01:59

Today's guest is Betsy Pepin. She is a transformative leader in the real estate industry. She's in Florida like me, and she is the author of Breaking Boxes.

In this conversation, Betsy really takes us on her journey of kind of how things started to break apart in her life.

And these life altering experiences like losing her job and her marriage dissolving, led her to understand that she was kind of defining herself by these boxes that other people had put her in.

And so her whole journey is about trying to find a way of breaking those boxes and kind of creating the life that you want to live in the way that you want to live it. She shares how she does this and how she breaks free from those societal expectations that I'm always talking about.

And she really encourages us all to kind of break or dismantle the metaphorical boxes that we put ourselves in or other people put us in.

So anyone that's really seeking to find this true path or just need a little bit of an idea of how to break through into different ways of being in your life, I think this episode will resonate with you. And without further ado, here is my conversation with Betsy Pepin. I'm Macgill Hooley.

And this is the Life Shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I am here with Betsy. Hello, Betsy.

Betsy Pepine: 00:03:36

Hello, Matt. How are you?

Matt: 00:03:38

You know, so good. And everyone knows we've been talking for a few minutes now and I just admitted that my eye has been twitching for a few weeks now.

So that's how I am. Everything's fine. Thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast.

It's been a journey that I never knew I needed, and I'm so grateful that I get to talk to people like yourself, just like basically strangers that I've never met, and hear these stories of how a moment in time changed them and how they were.

For anyone that's listening for the first time, because you're on, the Life Shift podcast exists because When I was 8, my mom was killed in a motorcycle accident and my parents lived states apart. And I lived with my mom full time. And when she died, everything in my life changed. I had to move to a new state, I had to start a new school.

I had to live with a parent that I didn't normally live with. Everything changed.

And it was like the late 80s, early 90s, so people weren't really talking about how to help a kid grieve and how to move through life with a dead parent. And I. I assumed that everyone wanted to see me happy, so I just pushed that aside.

But all that time, I always wondered, do other people in this world have, like, these moments in time where everything changes? As an adult now, I know people have lots of them, but, you know, it was really something that stuck out to me.

And now I've had this just opportunity to talk to people about these and how, whether it's an external force like what I experienced, or an internal fire, and how we can change as people and we can reflect on these moments with maybe some weird gratitude or some kind of like, it was terrible. But look at all the things that I've learned about myself because of it. And so it's just been such an unexpected but fulfilling journey.

So thank you for being a part of it.

Betsy Pepine: 00:05:28

Absolutely. My pleasure.

Matt: 00:05:29

The human story is so powerful, and I'm sure you understand this from your own life is just like, you never know who's out there listening right now that is going through something or they feel alone in the way that they're feeling about something, and then something that you're going to share on your story is going to click with them and they're going to feel less alone. They're going to feel inspired to move through life in a different way. So I just. So grateful. So, anyway, thank you.

ou can tell us who you are in: 2024

Betsy Pepine: 00:06:06

I am a wanderer, a seeker, somebody who is just insanely curious about life and People to make a living and to pay my bills. I am a broker of real estate, but I don't define myself by that.

Matt: 00:06:24

Is this, I guess, we'll hear in your story, but this wonder, have you always been someone so curious about other people and their stories, or is this a new, newer part of your journey?

Betsy Pepine: 00:06:35

Actually, no.

I do feel like I've always subconsciously been curious, but I definitely think it's something now I am much more aware of, embrace and seek out than before.

Matt: 00:06:48

Yeah. Do you think that some of that was, like, society driven? And I asked that because I often talk to people about how I felt.

So much of my life was like this checklist. Like, I did the things that I thought everyone expected me to do in the order that they expected me to do.

And therefore there wasn't that space for curiosity in my sense of, like, asking people questions outside the norm. Like, you could ask people, how are you? What do you do for a living? You know, like, don't ask them these other questions.

Do you feel that any of that was driven in your life?

Betsy Pepine: 00:07:21

Yeah, actually. That's interesting you said that. Yes, very much so, because I felt like I had two pivots in my life, and I'll talk about those later.

But the second one, definitely, in the last, like, seven years of my life, it's been talking about and reflecting on all the boxes I checked that I thought I was supposed to check to be successful and thus happy. And I was successful, but not thus happy.

Matt: 00:07:46

So, yes. And I think there's a lot of people that probably feel that way. I think you're like, okay, well, it wasn't this box.

It's the next box that I'm going to find the happiness. Right. And then you check that one. You don't spend any time celebrating that box you just checked.

You move to the next box, you're like, it's going to be this one. I know. I know that feeling all too well.

It was very much my life for so long, and then certain things happened in my life and I was like, nobody cares. Not a person cares besides me. And here I am doing all these things so other people will care. So I think that's very common.

And I think, you know, maybe we learn from those in a positive way. Right.

So I'll let you paint the picture of your life leading up to this first pivotal moment, the second one, however you want to go, this is your story to tell and how far back you want to go. But, yeah, maybe you can paint the picture of who you were Before.

Betsy Pepine: 00:08:41

So I was born in a family.

I've got a twin sister and I have an older sister, identical twin sister and an older sister and grew up in a home where high expectations, which I appreciate, very struck, very, very structured and very clear as to what we were supposed to do and not do.

And there was definitely a pressure on my, on me and my sisters to become physicians because that is what my father is and that's what I grew up in that environment. I grew up, we all did, going to the hospital with him, working for his colleagues before we could even get a minimum wage job.

We were all pre medic college. My older sister and my twin sister graduated from the college and then went to the school that my dad is teaching at and is an academic physician at.

And so I felt a tremendous amount of pressure to do that. And I didn't do that though. I at least at the time just said, I can't do it. It's not me, it's not in me.

So I, I went to business school like you and got my MBA. And you're right, at 23, I was actually, I did go to school, I did work for two years and then went back.

Matt: 00:09:51

Oh well, that was better than I did, I think.

Betsy Pepine: 00:09:54

I was 24 when I graduated and I spent a decade in the pharmaceutical industry straddling that healthcare pool that I was feeling. And I, it was funny because I, I liked everything about my job except for my job. I like, I liked the people in my job.

I liked the fact that it was literally for most of that time it was within a mile of my home. I liked, honestly the income. I liked that for the most part I didn't have to take home work at night.

The travel was interesting, but the actual job I didn't like. But I thought, okay, that's, you don't get everything in life that's worth it.

Matt: 00:10:31

And you checked a box, I'm sure from the outside looking in, everyone's like, ooh, good job, right? All the success. She must be so happy.

Betsy Pepine: 00:10:38

Absolutely. And I was advancing up the corporate ladder and I was 32 and I had two daughters. They were one and two years old.

I had married my childhood sweetheart and I grew up in Florida, but we were living in Philadelphia. And within a very short period of time I found myself suddenly single and laid off.

And at the time of my life, I was, I think of it as I was sitting on a three legged stool. My pillars in my life were my marriage, my career and my children. And two of those legs, you know, release themselves from me. And I.

When you're sitting on a three legged stool and two legs go out, you land on the floor. And I did. And it took me, I moved back home and when people, when I say that to people, they assume, oh, yeah, she moved back to Florida.

No, I moved back into my childhood bedroom and my girls moved into what were previously my sister's bedrooms. Growing up to just figure out a.

Matt: 00:11:44

Plan, was that a welcome feeling from like or was that a sense of defeat for you? Like, how did you feel? Were you like, okay, I'm going to go back there and re. Recuperate in a way? Or was it like, you know, like, I have failed?

Betsy Pepine: 00:11:59

No, it wasn't, I didn't feel like. I definitely felt like I had failed in my marriage because I don't come from generations of divorce at all. We, we're Catholics.

We, we were taught, you know, you don't get divorced unless you're. It's just, you know, just awful. I never envisioned that as a part of my life plan.

Matt: 00:12:20

Yeah, no, I, I don't mean to put any pressure on you to feel like that. I just, I'm just curious if, if we internalize those things because you had the boxes checked.

Betsy Pepine: 00:12:30

Right.

And I did feel, you know, I getting laid off, that was definitely traumatic, even though I should have seen it coming because they laid off the entire division. I was working at the time for a biotech company, which was a one product company. The product did not get FDA approval and I was working in marketing.

We had nothing to market, but I just thought, oh, you know, they'll go back through trials, we'll try again. They just disband the whole commercial division.

Matt: 00:12:59

Do you internalize that? Did you? Like, I feel like I would be like, oh, what did I do? But looking back, it's like, clearly it wasn't you, it wasn't me.

Betsy Pepine: 00:13:08

But the part of me was like thinking, gosh, if I was good enough, they would have found a role for me, you know.

Matt: 00:13:16

Because you had been moving through your career.

Betsy Pepine: 00:13:18

Yeah, but, but now I'm totally fine. But it, you know, it was a, it was a rocky couple of years for me emotionally getting my stability back.

But I did vow I will never find myself with those few life pillars now. I, I constantly and very consciously have six to eight life pillars that are front and center that I work on on a regular basis.

I have goals, they are constant in my life. So if any one, even two pillars go out, I'm still standing.

Matt: 00:13:50

You kind of created this like life Protection, life preserver type type situation for yourself to feel safe again.

Betsy Pepine: 00:13:57

Yeah. And I mean, we're not really taught that. How to build a life, you know, I think that would be such a great.

There's so many skills that I think are so critical to a fulfilling life that we totally miss out on in our educational system. How to get along with people, how to manage money and how to. And truly how to build a solid foundation for your life.

Those to me are much more critical than calculus, you know, I mean, what.

Matt: 00:14:21

You don't use calculus every day?

Betsy Pepine: 00:14:23

I don't. So. So anyway, but, you know, looking back now, that was 22 years ago, 23 years ago. Best thing that ever happened to me. The best.

Because I am such a different person than I ever would have been. And my girls grew up with a much different mom than I would have been. And that I think has truly benefited them.

Fortunately, I think, fortunately they were so young. They don't remember a time when we were together. So there was not a traumatic. At least it didn't seem to be. And I don't feel it.

They never knew us together, so it wasn't like they were, you know, 10, 11, 12, and like you, you know, very traumatic having one parent exit. So. So they never had that. So that in that sense, I was lucky.

And I really do feel blessed that they could see an independent, strong, you know, strong, epic mom as. As what they saw. So that was great.

Matt: 00:15:20

And building the life that you wanted this time?

Betsy Pepine: 00:15:23

Oh, yeah. Building the life I wanted. And it's, you know, it's. I've been very blessed.

I came back here to Gainesville, always wanted to raise my children in my hometown and didn't think it was going to be in those circumstances, but you got to be careful what you wish for, you know, so. Got to raise my girls. They're 26 and 25. I now have a very. A wonderful, thriving.

I have a real estate brokerage, I have a property management company, I have a title company, I have a real estate school, and I have a wonderful nonprofit that is near and dear to my heart, which provides affordable housing to cost burden families in our counties, north central Florida. So it's just blossomed and really feel fulfilled. Never feel like I work a day in my life, but my second pivot happened.

So I'm 55 and it happened in my mid to late 40s when I was truly, like you had said, felt like I had checked off all the boxes on what was supposed to be successful and happy in building this life. But If I was honest with myself, I wasn't happy. Yes, I was successful.

Matt: 00:16:27

Were you doing all these things that you were just describing, like some of these businesses? This is where you were in this space?

Betsy Pepine: 00:16:32

I had, I. At that time, I had everything but the nonprofit. And so I. It took me a year to even admit it to myself because I thought you see so much outside of.

I see so much outside of my bubble of people who have so much less and they're so worse off than me. So I didn't feel that I even had the right to verbalize or admit that I wasn't happy, you know?

Matt: 00:16:58

But you do.

Betsy Pepine: 00:16:58

But you do, right? And so. So after I admitted that to myself, I started reading incessantly.

I've always been into meditation and yoga, and I did that on a more regular basis. I went to therapy for the first time in my life. I did bioenergetics work, I did emdr. Just a whole host of modalities.

And what I found as a common thread was the reason I was unhappy was because I felt like I was confined by these boxes that I was in. And the boxes that I were in were.

Were because of either my role, you know, as a mom, as a single mom, as a working mom at one time, a wife, a daughter, like being the good daughter, you know, what does that mean? And also my industry, my gender, you know, boxes that I felt and perhaps my peers were putting me in, my family of origin put me in.

So almost like I kind of describe it as.

Have you ever bought a mattress online and it arrives at your door and it's in a box like this big and then you rip it open and then you wait a day or two and it expands to like a king size mattress. I felt like I was that mattress in that box, so compressed and wanting to break free.

So I wrote this book called Breaking Boxes, Dismantling the Metaphorical Boxes that bind Us. And it just came out last Monday. That journey.

I know, it's so interesting because we were just talking about it and you don't even know that, but we were just talking about it. And so last Monday I launched this book and I wrote people like, why'd you write the book?

Most people assume it's a lead gen book for real estate and it has nothing to do with real estate. But I felt so called because all of these experiences that I had, when I shared them with others, others felt that way.

A lot of them didn't even recognize they were in some boxes. And that's how I felt at times. Where, you know, the first step to getting out of a box is being aware you're even in one.

And so then I wrote this book on this with the hopes of just changing one person's life. They read the book, they look at something in their life a little differently and recognize that they have choices and they can. They can extra.

Extricate themselves out of boxes that no longer serve them.

Matt: 00:19:17

It feels.

I mean, that's the same reason I do the Life Shift podcast all the time, is because growing up, and I'm sure you can attest to this, a lot of people didn't share these stories, right? Like, we didn't hear if. If a wife was unhappy necessarily unless something really crazy went on.

You know, like, we didn't hear those stories because people in those situations felt that, like you did, you weren't allowed to feel a certain way, but you're human. Like, we just didn't hear these stories.

And so by you putting out your book, by people coming on this podcast and sharing their story, there are other people out there that are finally going to go, yeah, I can break that box. I can get out of this depression in this way. I can try emdr, you know, whatever it might be. And it's just such. There's such a power in story.

And I love that you found this space, but also, like, it sucks that it took so long to find that space, right? Because I'm sure you're like, oh, God, if I had done this when I was 20, it's like, me, my grief journey, grieving my mom was like 20 plus years.

And when I had the breakthrough, I was like, damn it. You know, like, I could have done this so long ago. But, I mean, I guess that whole part of that journey makes all of this so much richer.

On the other side, do you feel that same way about, like, the previous version of you?

Betsy Pepine: 00:20:36

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And the joy. And, you know, you were talking earlier about how you achieve this, and, oh, that doesn't do it for you.

And then you achieve this, and that doesn't do it for you. And that's what I found is that when you. When you place your happiness on something external and something that can be taken away, it doesn't work.

And so now my happiness is truly from within. I mean, I. I feel this tremendous joy that I hadn't felt. In fact, that's what prompted the whole thing is I was. I was feeling unhappy.

This was, you know, about seven years ago, and I was scrolling through the Internet and I saw a picture of this, can you see that? Okay. And something drew me to this picture. This is a picture of a girl with her legs spread out, arms spread out as wide as Ango.

Favorite, you know, one piece bathing suit.

Matt: 00:21:25

Was she like five?

Betsy Pepine: 00:21:26

She looked like she's four or five.

Matt: 00:21:27

Yeah.

Betsy Pepine: 00:21:28

And you know, this pure, unbridled joy face with rain coming down on her head and across her, it says, remember her? She's still there inside you, waiting. Let's go get her. And so I, when I saw that, I was like, oh my gosh.

I printed it out, sent it to a company and it's on canvas now. Had it, had it backed on canvas. It sits in my office, at home and at work. It's a screensaver on my computer and my phone.

It's like I wanted that and, and I hadn't felt that in so long. And so that's what started the whole journey on.

Matt: 00:22:04

I'm like, so when you saw that picture, was it a sense of like, was there like a devastation? Was there sadness? Was there anger? Like.

Betsy Pepine: 00:22:13

No.

Matt: 00:22:13

What did you feel when you saw it?

Betsy Pepine: 00:22:14

I felt hope.

Matt: 00:22:17

Okay.

Betsy Pepine: 00:22:18

I don't know, it felt hopeful. And then a year later, so this was in my, probably mid-40s. A year or two later, we were hunkering down for a hurricane. Oddly enough, we just had one.

And I always get a project for hurricanes and the project for that one was putting photos into photo albums. I had always just accumulated photos and photo boxes.

So sure enough, couple hours into the hurricane, lights go out, I light my candles, I get out my photo boxes and the albums, and I start putting the photos into photo albums. I finished that project and I go to empty the photo boxes into the garbage and I could see there was a photo face down on that last box.

So I pulled out the photo, I can't see it. I take it over to the candle and I swear, Matt, it was like lightning went through me, but it wasn't from the storm outside.

And I ran to my home office and put the picture I was holding up next to this picture.

And I look back at the picture I'm holding and it's a picture of a four year old girl in her red stripe bathing suit in the Atlantic Ocean three feet in front of her father. She's. She looks like she's trying to hug a wave that's coming to her. Her face has a smile of pure, unbridled joy.

And on the bottom of that photo is my mother's faded black handwriting that says Betsy, aged four. And I thought, oh my gosh, Wow. I, I, I was that at one point and I, I lost my way. And so now I've been on a journey to get back to that.

And I'm close. You know, I do feel like I, I feel this on a regular basis now when I never, I mean I went decades without feeling this.

Matt: 00:23:51

Yeah. Cause you were just chasing that success and the happiness that society fed us. I think, like, cause there's no list anywhere.

I think we just all absorbed this. Like, and we all did the same thing. Right.

Like we went to college and then we got a good job and then we got promoted and bought a house and you know, all these things just felt so ingrained in us. We weren't, I, I shouldn't say we, I didn't choose so many of the things in my life because I wanted to do them.

I didn't get the MBA because I wanted to get the mba.

Betsy Pepine: 00:24:23

Yeah.

Matt: 00:24:23

I got the MBA because it was the next easiest thing for me to do to be successful.

Betsy Pepine: 00:24:28

Yeah.

Matt: 00:24:28

And a lot of mine comes from trauma because losing my mom, I attached to perfectionism because I was afraid my dad was going to leave too if I didn't impress him. It wasn't that he had high standards for me, which I think he probably did, but he would never have left if I got a B, you know.

But so many of the decisions that I made were out of fear that he was going to leave. And because people didn't talk about these things, I just automatically assumed like this box, like I put myself in the box.

And then, then I became a high school student, then became a college student, you know, and everything just, just traveled down the line thinking the same as you did when you were like, I have all these things, but like, where is the joy? Like, am I doing them because I want to? You know, like.

And, and so I love that, you know, you found this quote unquote success that the world saw in you, but at the same time you were able to recognize that it wasn't driving the joy in you. And you had to find, I mean you had to find a way to bring all that joy back. I mean that seems like a, a tall order.

What did it, was that a challenge to do?

Betsy Pepine: 00:25:34

it's been fantastic. Sold the: 5000

Matt: 00:25:42

So like it was just like turn a switch kind of kind of moment where you were able to start finding that joy or. Because I feel like I, I had to work at it.

Betsy Pepine: 00:25:52

Well, I mean like switching for careers, that was huge. And that was 20 years ago.

But the mo, you know, more recently, the last five years, it's just like I just don't care anymore about, about what people, society, my parents think of me.

Matt: 00:26:08

I just, and that wasn't hard to switch to hard.

Betsy Pepine: 00:26:11

Yeah. But I, what I do is.

And I, and I still, sometimes, sometimes it creeps in is I feel like the only, the only reason we stay in situations that are not good for us is either we're unaware, but if we're aware and we're still choosing to stay, then it's fear based. And so it's either for me it's either fear of failure, which I don't, I truly don't believe failure exists. And that's evolved.

But to me it's a learning, it's a lesson, it's a pivot. There's, there's failure is another box. That's a mental construct that people put other people in. It doesn't exist.

So I don't have fear of failure anymore. But there is fear of maybe social disconnection if I move out of a box.

Because people like, even when it's not, even if it's not really working well, they understand the rules of the game and everyone's okay with it. So why ruffle feathers? So anytime you move out of a box, you're kind of, it's almost like chess and you're changing the, the game.

You're going to lose something and you're going to gain something and are you going to be okay with that or you're going to the fear of social status, which, that's just an ego issue. And I have learned long ago you put the ego on the shelf and you just move forward and that pretty much solves that issue.

So I just really try to work through if I'm feeling any kind of hesitancy really what is driving that? And I can usually think, okay, well what's the worst case scenario in those. Walking through myself, through those fears.

And I can live with those worst case scenarios. So that, that makes the decision much easier to move towards. And I, the other thing, Matt, is I, I do it. It's a daily tracker.

But I, I'm so, and not in a selfish way at all, but I recognize that every time I was saying yes to somebody else, I'm saying no to me. And I won't do that anymore. You know, I don't want to come to the end of my life feeling like. And this is a common thing when you when you.

When they interview people who are at the end of their life is they never lived the life they wanted. And I don't. I don't want that to be me.

Matt: 00:28:14

No, I mean, that's. That's big. And it's also hard. I think it's hard to get. To get started.

Maybe probably not as hard once you get that ball rolling, I think, and kind of feeling what that joy actually feels like and how choosing you first, you know, it's not in. Not in a selfish way, but in a way that.

Because I think the more you live in your own truth and joy and happiness, the better all the people around you end up feeling because it's. It's fully you and you're not just placating or you're not checking a box to be something for someone else.

I'm sure there's someone else out there that can actually fill that with joy, you know, in a way. Yeah. You mentioned that you tried a lot of modalities of, like, different kind of therapy type things.

Were any of these, like, pivotal in shifting that perspective? Because I would imagine.

Betsy Pepine: 00:29:04

Yeah.

Matt: 00:29:05

Not giving a crap anymore about certain things is. Is a perspective shift for people like us. So for box lovers like us.

Betsy Pepine: 00:29:13

Well, one thing. So one practice I do which helps is I stay outside of my comfort zone. I force myself to stay outside my comfort zone.

I am most comfortable outside my comfort zone. When I stay in my comfort zone too long, it gets really uncomfortable. So on a daily basis, and that's on my habit tracker.

Did I get outside my comfort zone today? When you start practicing that things. Things that used to be scary, just. They're just not scary anymore. But in terms of modalities, the.

The bioenergetics work that was incredibly. It's. Well, the. How the woman here teaches it. We go to these group sessions. And I mean, it is so. You are so vulnerable.

And I didn't grow up in a family that was vulnerable with their feelings. In fact, we didn't talk about our feelings at all. It was when I first got into therapy, the therapist said, well, Betsy, how do you feel today?

I was like, oh, I feel pretty good. Well, why are you here? And I said, well, sometimes I feel bad. And he's like, well, what else? You know, what other feelings do you feel?

I had no idea what she was talking about. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I either feel good or I feel bad. And that was the extent of my vocabulary.

So then she printed out this feelings wheel, which. Which I had never seen before. And I was like, oh my gosh. I felt like a kindergartner learning all about emotions and feelings. And because I.

The messaging I got growing up and I think it was probably generational is feelings are fleeting. They're unreliable. You know, think, what do you think, Betsy? Not what do you feel. Look at the facts. Don't trust the. Your emotions.

Matt: 00:30:49

Oh, your dad was in science. He was gonna make sense.

Betsy Pepine: 00:30:52

Yeah. And so that's how we were raised. And so just being in tune with. Because your body tells you before your mind tells you.

And so now just being very acutely aware of what your body is trying to tell you. And that's what the bioenergetic work does, is it helps you really get to that very quickly.

Matt: 00:31:12

It's always interesting to me when someone hasn't done like this work before, was it hard to make those decisions to try EMDR and bio, you know?

Betsy Pepine: 00:31:23

Yeah, the bioenergetics, that was, it was, it was really. That was, that was the toughest one. One on one therapy was fine with me.

Matt: 00:31:32

Sometimes that's hard for a lot of people.

Betsy Pepine: 00:31:34

Yeah. I actually liked it and enjoyed being able to be that open with somebody and somebody who has no, no hidden agenda. They're only trying to help you.

They. And I also like that there's no biases. Like, they don't. They don't know my dynamics. They don't know who's in my life.

So I can really get a truly objective opinion because that's hard to get to get. But you know, the bioenergetics work like one of the exercises at the very beginning. If you've never done it, highly recommend it.

So you're in this room with strangers.

Matt: 00:32:02

And I could do that.

Betsy Pepine: 00:32:03

Yeah. So that you. So. And you don't really talk a whole lot before the program starts. First exercise. And it was just all exercises the whole day.

You spoke very little. And you stand in a circle and There was probably 15 or 16 of us. And somebody goes in the center.

And the first, the person who's in the center stands about whatever comfortable distance 2 to 3ft away from one person. And you look, it's. You never lose eye contact with that person. And they, you're. You're in the center. The other person models your breathing.

So then once you guys are in sync with your breath, which are slow, deep breaths, and you're still. You do not lose eye contact. Then when the person in the center is ready, they just say, hi, I'm Betsy. Very simple exercise.

These adult you know, so many people were in tears by the end of it because it make. It made you take up space and. And having eye contact with somebody for a couple of minutes is in silence, is incredibly intimate and vulnerable.

Like, you feel. You feel naked, like it's odd, but you feel very exposed. And then you had to go to each so that. And then you say, hi, I'm Betsy.

And then you do a couple more breaths together in sync. And then when you're ready, you're in the center, you move to the next person, and you go around the whole circle, and then the next person does it.

And it took about an hour and a half for everybody to go through, but you left that exercise feel, and you had not said anything except for your name, that you knew these people better than most of your friends. It was unbelievable. Just the. I don't know.

It's hard to explain the intimacy that is created with just something as simple as that and how much we're lacking that in our culture.

Matt: 00:33:56

It kind of made me think of people feeling seen for the first time.

I wonder how many people are in these sessions in which they may have never had that much eye contact with someone because there was shame that was built in. There was something, you know, in their life that they weren't ready to be that vulnerable. I can. Can imagine what that might feel like.

And then how do you feel like when you leave a session like that? Like, what is. What does that feel like? Do you feel like a new person? Do you feel cleansed? Do you.

Betsy Pepine: 00:34:30

Yeah, I mean, one. Like, I've run marathons before. I felt like I had run an ultimarathon.

Matt: 00:34:35

Oh, wow.

Betsy Pepine: 00:34:35

I was so physically exhausted, or. I mean, it felt physically exhausted, but just emotionally spent after a day of all, like, exercises like that all day long.

But, yeah, I mean, I was on a high that I've never felt. And probably because you're right. I mean, you're seen, but also for me.

So, like, where I live, like, I, like, people know me when I go somewhere, so they know me, and they already have. I don't know. It's just hard to explain.

Matt: 00:35:06

But, like, a preconceived idea of who you are.

Betsy Pepine: 00:35:09

Yeah, they have a preconceived idea of who I am, which is fine, and it's honestly usually good, so that's okay. But it's like they know me for my success in my businesses, but they don't know me. This group of people didn't know me from Adam.

And then for me to be able to take up space just for nothing other than me being a human and not having, not relying on my accomplishments to have value. That was huge for me.

Matt: 00:35:43

Yeah, no, I would imagine that that would be very big for a lot of people because again, like you said, most people are defined, buy these boxes whether they want to or not. You know, you're kind of just placed in these things and now like someone sees you just as a, as a person. There's a vulnerability there too.

For those of us that grew up trying to impress other people and trying to be something to other. To everyone, I guess. And now it's like I don't have to be anyone. I could just be me. That sounds amazing. I should probably, I would probably.

I don't know how I would handle that, but I think it's, I think it's a beautiful thing.

Betsy Pepine: 00:36:18

I, I went all in and did the full day, but they have two hour workshops.

Matt: 00:36:22

Well, two hours sounds like a lot too.

No, but I think it, there's a big, there's a big gap in my mind of how someone that can be like me checking these boxes for so long, then dives in the deep end to really find that little four year old girl with her arms open wide of like, remember her? Like, I mean, she's waiting for a hug, right? Like she's excited.

Now you're going back and trying to find that hug to bring her back to change your life. And also too, you were already doing what 90% of the things you're doing now as far as jobs go, right? Yeah, at that time.

Betsy Pepine: 00:36:57

Yeah.

Matt: 00:36:59

And so now how does, how do you work through all those spaces with more joy now and loving the things you do and not feeling that unhappiness that you had while you were still doing most of that same stuff before. Like, how does that change?

Betsy Pepine: 00:37:14

Well, I feel, I do feel like I. I mean, it's like, it's like you have, it's like I had almost like dirty sunglasses on.

Matt: 00:37:22

Okay.

Betsy Pepine: 00:37:22

And now it's just clear. So it's the same environment, but my perspective is so different and joyful and I see the beauty in myself and in other people.

Whereas before, if things would annoy me or frustrate me, I don't know, it's hard to explain, but it just, it's. And it's almost like.

And not in a passive way, because I'm not a passive person, but more that I'm much more of an observer of, of what's going on and not. And I was never a big reactor, but Things would upset me before. And now it's more like, oh, that's interesting.

I wonder what I, you know, wonder what lesson I could learn there versus, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they did that. Why. Why is this person acting this way? You know?

Matt: 00:38:13

Were you a fixer before, too?

Betsy Pepine: 00:38:15

A big fixer, yeah.

Matt: 00:38:16

Okay. So now it's more curiosity of, like, what can I learn? I don't need to fix this right away.

I might have to fix it at some point, but, yeah, I'll get to it.

Betsy Pepine: 00:38:25

Yeah. And like, let's see how this plays out.

Matt: 00:38:28

More patience, maybe more patience.

Betsy Pepine: 00:38:30

So much less stress.

Matt: 00:38:32

Do you make different business decisions because of all this?

Betsy Pepine: 00:38:35

I do, yes. I absolutely think so. I think I give people more rope, you know, to. It's like, well, they can figure it out, you know, may not be the way.

And that's kind of how I raised my children. I did raise my children that way. Like, they'll figure it out. May not be the way I would have done it, but, you know, kudos to them.

They figured it out in a different way. So, yeah, I think I do more hands off in a. In a good way. For them, probably.

Matt: 00:39:05

Probably for you, too. Well, seemingly for you if you're finding that joy. No, I think it's interesting.

And the reason I ask all these questions about, like, how life on the outside probably looked very similar to it does, you know, like, that person that passes you at Publix.

Betsy Pepine: 00:39:19

Yeah.

Matt: 00:39:20

Would have saw you as this, you know, maybe a bigger smile on your face now. But they would define you the same way as far as if they were just looking externally. These are the jobs you have. These are the things you do.

They don't know you from Adam, but so many people that I talk to of these, like, internal perspective shifts and life shift moments in. In this way, like, completely pivot their lives to, like, I'm going to become like a sailor.

And I, you know, like, I used to be a stockbroker, and now I'm going to be a sailor. But your life on, you know, on paper didn't change too much.

It was more you finding ways to find joy again or for the first time in all the things you were already doing. Plus the new nonprofit.

Betsy Pepine: 00:40:03

Yeah, the nonprofit came about five years ago. That's. I love that. My goal in life is to improve and empower the lives of others.

And that just fits right into my goal because we're serving a segment of the. Of the population that doesn't usually use our services, and we're helping them find homes. So that's just wonderful. And build homes.

They build the homes alongside us. We partner with Habitat for Humanity. It's a hand up, not a handout, which is. That's my whole like, I love that motto. So that's been really nice.

Matt: 00:40:34

Was that on your list before your seeking of joy and breaking the boxes?

Betsy Pepine: 00:40:41

So one of my core values in my company has been in like, my core values are my company's core values. So one, the core value has always been service. And then about five years ago, we changed it because for me, it really was about impact.

Why do service if you're not making an impact? So we said, no, we're going to really funnel our efforts and the value change to impact. And we focused.

Most of our efforts now are in our space, real estate space and housing. And so that that focus has shifted a little bit just to make it more impactful.

Instead of doing little things then not having a major impact in any one area, we're really tightly focused now on where that impact is being made.

Matt: 00:41:31

And feel free to tell me that I'm being dumb and I'm just making assumptions here because this is what I do here on the show.

But, you know, like, it feels like maybe before this kind of mind perspective shift, the service was a little bit more checklisty of like you're doing it and now it's more like, I don't.

Betsy Pepine: 00:41:51

Know, heartfelt right there. And there's a purpose to it before we do. I mean, I've always loved to give back, but there was really no strategy behind it. There was no plan.

It was just like, oh, that sounds good. Oh, that sounds good.

Matt: 00:42:03

We should do this right.

Betsy Pepine: 00:42:04

There wasn't any bigger plan now because.

Matt: 00:42:07

I think there's a lot of organizations out there that have a service value as one of their core pillars, if you will.

But a lot of them are just like lip service in a way of like, oh, there's the things they do are very helpful, of course, but it's just find me something out here in the community that we can do and not as focused in as you're doing now. Have you ever read a book called the Noticer?

Betsy Pepine: 00:42:34

No. And I read a lot.

Matt: 00:42:36

I think it's by Andy Andrews. It's a little bit. I don't know if it's spiritual or not. I don't know, I'm not very religious or anything like that.

But I read this book and it, a lot of it reminds me of your story in a sense of.

It's really about this guy who's kind of going through life just seeing kind of the meh on the side, you know, like, just doing his thing and seeing things in a negative way. Not saying that you were doing that.

I don't mean that, but another one comes in his life and is like, you should look at it from this angle and life and something about that.

I sent it to, like, everyone I knew at the time when I read it, and it really just changed my mind about how, like, sometimes we're looking at things, but we're not seeing the proper side of it, you know, like, if we just shift our perspective just a little bit, everything is different. And it's kind of like your service. You just, like, turn the box a little bit. It's a whole new world of, like, oh, this is how it actually fits.

It's kind of like that. I'm sure you remember this game, Perfection.

Betsy Pepine: 00:43:36

Oh, yeah, I loved it. That was one of my favorite games. And super Perfection.

Matt: 00:43:40

It stressed me out. But, you know, it's kind of like you got to turn the thing so that the moon fits in the proper way.

And, you know, sometimes maybe that's just how life is. You know, we got to look at it from different sides that. I mean, good on you for finding this. This part of.

Of your journey, because I bet it makes life feel more fulfilling.

Betsy Pepine: 00:44:00

Very, very much so.

Matt: 00:44:02

Does the word success fit in your world? I know failure doesn't quite. But does success?

Betsy Pepine: 00:44:06

Yeah. Success for me now is really. Did my presence positively impact somebody today? And that's it. I mean, if. If. And I.

At the end of the day, I asked myself that question, and that was. That was a successful day. If I can say yes to that question.

Matt: 00:44:23

Do you say no to that ever?

Betsy Pepine: 00:44:26

Occasionally.

Matt: 00:44:28

Okay.

Betsy Pepine: 00:44:29

And those are usually days where I don't see anybody. Like, I work from home. I mean, sometimes I work from home.

If I work from home and I don't interact with anybody other than, like, through email, there will be a day where it's like, oh, I don't feel like I really did positively impact somebody.

Matt: 00:44:45

I guess my question comes from. I think there are some people that might see or hear a story like this where, like, I'm seeking joy, I'm going to be happy and all these things.

You're not happy all the time. Right. Like, you probably have bad days and you get angry and you have all that. All that. Those emotions on that wheel that you showed me. Is that.

Is that a fair assumption?

Betsy Pepine: 00:45:07

I don't get angry. It's odd. I don't get angry a lot, but I mean. But yes. I mean, I'm not. I'm not on the Good ship Lollipop every day. No, but I do. I am very aware.

I mean, every day, at least once a day, the thought goes through my mind, and not in a morbid way. The thought is, betsy, this could very well be your last day here.

And that really shifts my perspective and makes pretty much everything totally fine. Because when I know that, that the alternative. And, I mean, we just had an agent that used to work for us passed away unexpectedly last week.

So I'm constantly reminded that this truly could be my last day here. And then it's like, gosh, I've got it pretty good, you know?

Matt: 00:46:00

Yeah. I mean, it is. It is about perspective. And a lot of that. That question really stems from my own curiosity. And, like, part of my journey.

Definitely not happy all the time, but part of my journey is or has been. Once I was able to grieve my mom properly, I say I failed for 20 years, and then I did it properly.

And then my grandmother got sick, who I got really close to after my mom died. And I grieved properly, losing her. Sat with her her last 96 hours. Did all these things that I felt right.

But what I learned in that journey about myself is so much of my existence on this Earth. For me to be happy in the world is to acknowledge how I'm feeling at any moment in time. And so that I wasn't allowed to do that when I was a kid.

In my mind, I was only allowed to be happy. Like, I couldn't be anything else. But now if I have a bad day, I say, that's okay. Like, you know, like, I'm having a bad day. This is not forever.

This is a moment in time. Kind of like this fleeting feeling. But, like, I. The. What helps me is the acknowledgement of that. And so that's kind of where that question came from.

I like, are you happy all the time? Because I know that I'm. I'm living in more joy and I'm doing the things that serve me in a.

In a way that make me happy and is not necessarily checking a box for someone else to be impressed. But I also know that there are days that. Where I'm just like this, like, my eye twitching. Like, what?

You know, so that was where that question came from.

Betsy Pepine: 00:47:34

Interesting. Yeah.

Matt: 00:47:35

Hopefully that wasn't offensive in any way.

Betsy Pepine: 00:47:37

No, no, no.

Matt: 00:47:38

Yeah. What do you tell people? Like, if people are like, man, you're so different like, do people say that to you? Do they notice a difference in you?

Does there. Do your daughters notice a difference in you?

Betsy Pepine: 00:47:49

I don't. I don't know. I don't feel like we've talked about that, so I don't know. Yeah.

Matt: 00:47:55

So you just. You, like, how are your relationships different from this? Like, my relationships and.

Betsy Pepine: 00:47:59

Yeah. So over the last. I mean, I'm very. I've always been somewhat. But I'm very, very intentional about how I spend my time and who I spend it with. And I.

I really only have authentic, truly authentic relationships and friendships, which means I don't have a lot of people, which. It was fine with me. I. I don't. That doesn't bother me at all.

But the people in my life, I truly feel like they get me, the real me, and they support that in my good days and my bad days. And so I can. I love that. So that has changed immensely. And.

And I can tell them and talk about my feelings and what's going on, and I don't fear being judged or, you know, anything but love and support. So that's been huge. And my relationships, in terms of my daughters, I should say that I do feel like they are.

They're more honest and open about how we're feeling. So if. If I've said something or done something that upsets them, they. They have no problem telling me, that's great. And it doesn't. We're.

It's not like we're not talking. We're. We're actually. That brings us closer because we've been able to share and connect and be authentic with each other.

Matt: 00:49:12

Imagine doing that as a kid.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:15

I would have. I would have.

Matt: 00:49:16

You wouldn't know how.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:18

Yeah, it would have.

Matt: 00:49:19

It wasn't a time period. The time period was different.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:21

Right.

Matt: 00:49:21

But I love that for your daughters, though. I think that's so wonderful. I was thinking of your friends, as you were describing your. Your friend group. Could you do that?

Circle that bioenergy circle with them?

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:31

Yes, we could.

Matt: 00:49:32

You could do it.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:32

I. We could. Yeah.

Matt: 00:49:34

Yeah, that's. That.

I would say that's like the true sign of, like, someone that knows you, you know, and that you would feel comfortable doing because you have come with a little extra strings when they're already your friend.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:45

Right.

Matt: 00:49:46

So you have a little. There's a whole other experience, I bet.

Betsy Pepine: 00:49:48

Yeah.

Matt: 00:49:49

No, I think it's. I think it's wonderful. What made you want to write the book? Is it just to, like, help other people or was it more.

Matt: 00:49:55

No, it was totally, you know, if I could help one person.

When I started sharing my stories of confinement, people resonated with those stories and saw boxes that they were in that they hadn't realized they were in. And I thought, oh, you know, if I could just change one person's life, it would have been worth the effort.

And I mean, from the feedback, people have reached out to me and have said, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize all the boxes that exist. This has been eye opening for me. I'm looking at things in a new way, so it's having the impact that I really wanted it to have.

Betsy Pepine: 00:50:30

Was it cathartic for you?

Matt: 00:50:32

Very, very cathartic, yeah.

Betsy Pepine: 00:50:34

Did you discover anything that. Or uncover anything that you were like, oh, I didn't realize that until I started putting it to paper.

Matt: 00:50:42

Probably just how. How much of my existence was in boxes and a lot of it just how I was just operating on a. On fear based. Making my decisions based on fear.

That was upsetting. But.

Betsy Pepine: 00:50:58

But I guess, I guess with the new joy in your heart too, you probably see those differently than if you had written it 10 years ago.

Matt: 00:51:05

Right. I don't know that I would have even had nearly the insights that I have today.

Betsy Pepine: 00:51:09

Yeah. You might have been more mad about those boxes at the time. And now you can see them as like learning experiences or like, what can I get from that?

Matt: 00:51:17

Right. And it's not, it's not other. It's. I'm not the victim. You know, I've put myself in boxes, I've put other people in boxes. Sometimes I still do.

So I'm not at all. And maybe 10 or 15 years ago, I would have been more of a victim, you know?

Betsy Pepine: 00:51:31

Yeah.

No, I think it's interesting when, when you like snap into this awareness of something and then you start seeing it everywhere and you're like, oh, that box too, or oh, so and so thought I was this and I'm not. And then you just start seeing it everywhere. So I can imagine how unpacking that felt like. But, you know, you're doing the right thing.

Putting your story out there. All goes back to story. I mean, however we package it up, whether it's in a book, a podcast, you're talking to someone on a park bench.

Matt: 00:51:57

Exactly.

Betsy Pepine: 00:51:58

You know, like, these are the things that we needed when we were kids, when we were growing up to know that, like, oh, there's a different way that we can do this. We don't have to check all the boxes or jump in the boxes or do Anything like that or stay in that. Well, you said it came out in.

Matt: 00:52:15

It came out September 23rd.

Betsy Pepine: 00:52:17

Awesome. That's so awesome. And does it feel like a weight has been lifted now that it's out in public, or do you feel energized to do another one?

Is there energized journey?

Matt: 00:52:26

Energized to do another one.

Betsy Pepine: 00:52:28

Yeah. Do you have an idea of what you might do the next time?

Matt: 00:52:31

Yeah.

Betsy Pepine: 00:52:31

Okay. Yeah, working on that. How long did the first one take?

Matt: 00:52:35

You know, it was. It was in my head for years. And then when I actually sat down and said, okay, Betsy, we're going to do it, it took a full year.

I wrote an hour a day, five days a week. That got me a page a day, 10, 10 pages every other week. Then it took me. And it doesn't have to take this long.

That part did take me that long if I wanted to keep my other businesses running then. So I finished it a year ago today. I mean, a year ago October. And then it took another year to get it out.

But that, that piece could have been truncated. It was just my schedules and my publisher schedules and vacations and things that went on that made it long.

But yeah, I mean, it would take me another year, I think, to write a book. It just.

Betsy Pepine: 00:53:18

You don't want to rush things like that. I think it's important to get the right things in there.

Matt: 00:53:21

Yeah.

Betsy Pepine: 00:53:22

What if, what if this version of you could go back to the Betsy that was sitting on that three legged stool and two pegs came falling off. What would you say to her?

Matt: 00:53:33

It'll be okay.

Betsy Pepine: 00:53:36

Would you believe it?

Matt: 00:53:37

My mindset at the time, no. But now I do believe. I mean, anything that hits me in a split second, I go there like I do know and I'm confident and 100% sure.

Not only is it going to be okay, it's actually going to. It's happening for me, not to me. And something better will result because of this.

Betsy Pepine: 00:54:01

Yeah. It shows you the power of the human spirit too. Because there are some moments that were like, I don't. I'm not sure that I can make it through this.

Right. And look at you now when you look back at that version of you.

Not that you were helpless or anything like that, but it was a dire situation in which you weren't used to, you know, and then you also had these little kids and you had all this stuff to take care of and you've done that and more. Now you have grown adult daughters that are telling you their feelings like that's. A win in itself.

Matt: 00:54:29

Yeah.

Betsy Pepine: 00:54:30

You know, I think there's, there's something about the parent child bond. If you can crack that down and be totally honest and vulnerable, I think you win, you know. Well, thank you for sharing your story in this way.

It's just, and thank you for letting me ask these questions and pushing in ways that maybe sounded rude to people that are listening. So I hope they did it.

Matt: 00:54:52

Not at all.

Betsy Pepine: 00:54:53

If people want to check out your book or get in your circle or find you on social, what's the best way to get in your space?

Matt: 00:54:59

So my website is my name Betsy Papin.com the book is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, any major book retailer.

Betsy Pepine: 00:55:09

Is it on your website too? They can find it.

Matt: 00:55:11

It's on my website. And then social handle is my name and I'm on, it's Betsy Pepin on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Betsy Pepine: 00:55:21

Wow, you're all over the place.

Matt: 00:55:22

I try.

Betsy Pepine: 00:55:23

Should we say hi to Lauren and Brittany as well?

Matt: 00:55:25

Yes.

Betsy Pepine: 00:55:26

Hello, Lauren and Brittany. Lauren has been on the, on the podcast as well. So she shared her story and she's, she's lovely. So, Lauren, if you're listening, thank you.

Matt: 00:55:35

Wonderful.

Betsy Pepine: 00:55:36

Well, thank you for being a part of the Life Shift podcast and helping to change lives.

We don't know who's listening right now, but if you're that person that's listening right now and something that Betsy said stuck with you, please reach out to her and let her know and let her know how that impacted you. Or maybe you have someone in your life that might need to hear this story.

Maybe they're in a situation where this three legged stool, the pieces are falling apart and their life feels a little bit untenable at the moment. Share this episode with them. I think we would really appreciate that.

So, and thank you for listening and I will be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks again, Betsy.

Matt: 00:56:11

Thank you.

Betsy Pepine: 00:56:23

For more information, please visit WW the Life Shift podcast dot com.