From Diagnosis to Legacy: How Ashley Gould Honors Her Father

Ashley Gould: 00:00:40

When my dad was diagnosed with a rare cancer called myelofibrosis, and he was given three to five years to live.

And I remember there's so many things I don't remember, but I remember after his diagnosis, which took several months because there was an episode in his office where he, like, fainted, they started doing tests. They had really no idea. And it's a rare cancer, so it's harder to diagnose.

And when they finally diagnosed him, I remember driving home from work and seeing people, like, you know, on the sidewalk having coffee and, like, laughing and smiling, and I was like, how can they possibly be enjoying their day when my dad has been given a life sentence, you know?

Matt Gilhooly: 00:01:27

Today's guest is Ashley Gould.

And probably a few weeks ago, you might have heard on my feed a little conversation that I had with Ashley Gould where we talked about our shows, we talked about the Life Shift podcasts, of course, and we talked about on the Table with Ashley and that we recorded right after we recorded this conversation that you're about to listen to. Ashley is a business owner. She's a former lawyer. And our conversation today did not center around either of those, really.

It centered around the relationship that she had with her father and how close it was and a diagnosis that her father received that kind of rocked her world and had her face things in different ways related to her grief journey, which was a longer, anticipatory grief journey followed by the unfortunate passing of her father, which led her into a different bucket of grief.

So we talk all about grief, and we talk about the memories, and we talk about how different grief journeys are and how that's actually pretty great, because then we can kind of follow our own path through this grief. I really enjoyed this conversation with Ashley, I think, because I could connect with a lot of the things that she was talking about.

And I love what she's doing with on the Table with Ashley, where she talks to people about these deep conversations that people need to talk about. She's also doing a series right now on death and dying, which I think is really important because people often shy away from that.

So you'll hear a lot of that conversation in this upcoming episode, and I think that a lot of it will resonate with you, especially if you've ever lost someone really close to you. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Ashley Gould.

I'm Matt Gilhooly, and this is the Life Shift candid conversations about the pivotal moments that have changed lives forever. Hello, my friends. Welcome to the Life Shift podcast. I Am here with Ashley. Hello, Ashley.

Ashley Gould: 00:03:33

Hello.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:03:34

Thank you for joining.

You are a fellow podcaster, and as I've told a couple other podcasters that have been on this show, I always get a little nervous when I talk to other podcasters.

Ashley Gould: 00:03:44

Don't be silly. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:03:48

Well, thank you for wanting to be a part of the Life Shift podcast. It's been this journey that I just never expected for myself.

And because it was so happenstance, really, when I was kind of bored during the pandemic, I took a bonus graduate degree and one of my electives was a podcasting class. And I was like, what am I going to do it on? And I was like, oh, of course.

When, you know, When I was 8, my mom died and everything in my life changed. And I was like, I wonder if other people have these moments.

And as we were talking before recording today, we were like, yeah, people have lots of life shifts. And I was like, well, I was naive, thinking I just have one moment in my life that changed everything.

And it's like, no, that's not the human experience. So thank you for wanting to share your. One of your pivotal moments and the things that's changed you.

There's something really important to me, and I know on your podcast you do this intentionally, not even in your new Death and Dying series, but just in general of, like, people need to share their stories and people need to hear these other stories and the humanity behind them, because there are so many instances, and I don't know if you felt this way as well, where we feel alone in a circumstance and then come to find out we're definitely not the only person to feel that way?

Ashley Gould: 00:05:04

Absolutely.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:05:05

Yeah.

Ashley Gould: 00:05:06

Absolutely, yes.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:05:07

Have you found any in your journey of talking to people where you're like, that validated an experience that you had?

Ashley Gould: 00:05:14

I feel like in almost every conversation, one, I learned something which is part of the goal, and two, it can help me see things in a slightly different way, which just helps me navigate life, if that makes sense.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:05:28

Totally. I think. I think we should be learning from each other.

I think sometimes we're put in our boxes and we feel a certain way, and then we can't change those.

But I think it's important to hear other stories and go, oh, maybe next time I encounter something like that, maybe I'll think differently than I did the last time. So I think it's just so powerful, and I'm so grateful for this journey. You are episode like 160 something.

you tell us who Ashley is in: 2024

Ashley Gould: 00:06:09

Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up. I was born in California, and during the pandemic, I moved to Utah. So I live in Park City, Utah, now. And I have two teenagers.

My husband and I have two teenagers. So we're going through the teenage years, which is not for the faint of heart.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:06:30

I'm sure you're learning a lot.

Ashley Gould: 00:06:32

I'm learning a lot, and I'm trying to use all of the skills that I'm learning along the way. And. Right. Actually, during the pandemic, I was thinking about what I wanted to do.

I was a lawyer in California for almost 20 years, and I really knew I wanted to do something different. And it was actually while my husband had Covid, and then my younger son got Covid, we were supposed to go visit family in California.

So my husband took my older son and I stayed home with my younger son, who, at that time, you know, you were completely isolating. So I had a lot of time to think, a lot of time by myself. And it was at that time that I decided I wanted to start a company.

So I started a company called Attende, which is French for to take care of your soul.

And it is a company that is focused on creating elevated, everyday objects, so beautiful objects that you can use every day, that you can put in the dishwasher in the microwave.

But the goal is to sort of set the table for bigger conversations or for the conversations that we tend to avoid and to encourage people to increase their curiosity and respect and decrease their judgment in these interactions. And the objects are intended to sort of help make a comfortable space to do that.

And then I also have my podcast on the table with Ashley, which is really focused on trying to cover subjects that we don't always talk about.

Like you were saying, I have a death and dying series right now, which I feel like is just a critically important subject for us to talk about, and we really don't, so. And it sort of.

It ties to the brand because it's really focused on, again, having these conversations that we should be having that we often avoid having.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:08:24

Yeah, well, quite a shift from practicing law and to moving into this space. Was there a. Was it. Was it a natural thing or was it a total 180 for your life in the sense of your focus?

Ashley Gould: 00:08:37

A total 180, I would say for what I was, you know, from a professional perspective. But my mom used to paint before she had kids, and she had a small stationery and gift shop when we were growing up.

And my little sister's a graphic designer. My dad wrote songs on the guitar and recorded them all, and he would write them, like, for life events. And my older sisters also write music.

So I feel like there's an artistic side in my family. I just maybe hadn't sort of like, tapped into mine yet.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:09:14

Well, I mean, because you're like.

I guess where that question came from is were you practicing, like, family law or something where you were hearing these stories and you wanted to, like, pull from them. But I mean, I love the. It was kind of.

Ashley Gould: 00:09:27

Not at all.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:09:28

It was in your genes.

Ashley Gould: 00:09:29

Hopefully. It's in my genes. And I. No, I was a corporate lawyer, so it was totally, totally different.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:09:35

Not quite the same. No, that's. I mean, are you finding it that it is filling your soul in the ways that you were hoping it would?

Ashley Gould: 00:09:44

100%. I mean, 1,000%. It has been such a wonderful journey, both from the perspective of creation. So we.

I work with my designer in the business, Dylan Williamson, and they, and I design most of the products and then we have them made in small batch production. So we're trying to sort of. We're not trying to recreate what already exists, but we're trying to improve it in our, you know, from our perspective.

And for me, I'm. I'm 50, so it's like, how am I picking things up? How am I storing them? How heavy are they? Can I put them in the dishwasher?

It's those kinds of things. So it may be subtle changes, but it's been really fun.

And then to work with artisans and meet them and then all aspects of the business, from inventory management to marketing, you know, it's just been really a wild, educational ride. And then the podcast has just been. I mean, I'm learning so much, so it's so fun for me.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:10:47

Yeah, it sounds like you're in this nice little part of your journey called life right now.

Ashley Gould: 00:10:52

I would say so.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:10:53

Despite the challenges of having teenagers at home, you know, I think, yes, that's going to teach you a lot, too. So. And I'm sure there are fun moments that go along with the challenges.

Ashley Gould: 00:11:02

There definitely are.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:11:03

That's awesome.

And I love the pivot later in life, too, because I think sometimes, also to your point of people not sharing stories, I think we're also, like, conditioned to, like, be afraid of a Big change like that. And, like, I think society. I think of society a lot. When I hear someone's like a lawyer, then people just make these assumptions about lawyers.

Like, oh, you make all this money and you do all these things, and you're so important. Why would you ever leave that job, you know? Like, why would you ever, you know, start your own company? Like, when you have this?

And it's like, because I want to. Because I feel the pull.

Ashley Gould: 00:11:43

And I think you're right. I think people are afraid. People are afraid of the unknown, which is probably why there's such a fear of death and talking about grief.

And you do have to have a bit of courage, I think.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:11:55

Yeah, a lot.

Ashley Gould: 00:11:57

But it is just so. It's so rewarding. And there's a book, and I'm going to forget the title, but I can send it to you later.

But it's all about finding meaning in the second half of life and how our. Even our skills change in the second half of life.

And so it's not a terrible idea to sort of reconsider where you are and how you want to spend your energy in the second half of your life.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:12:22

Yeah, I agree. I'm kind of living it now. I. With that second master's degree, totally different space now.

I'm working in a different field and a different type of company, you know, like, so all the things are changing here in my 40s, and so I can kind of relate. Maybe not quite as grand as what you're doing, but I love it. And I love that people can hear this story and know, like, take a chance.

Never know what's going to happen and see how fulfilled. You just described the way that you feel about your company and your podcast and all those things. I mean, there's.

You can see the joy that comes from you when you talk about it. Yeah.

Ashley Gould: 00:12:55

Thank you so much. And I think it's. You know, people used to think, well, I have safety in my job. Right.

But I think today that's not really true anyway, so I think it's easier to sort of say, I'm going to take that jump and try something new, because it's not, you know, you're not gonna have that lifetime job that you used to have.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:13:15

I think a lot of people, though, are complacent in a sense. Like I was for many years. Cause it was like, well, I just show up and it's easy. Like, I don't have to do anything.

And then at some point, I was like, well, I don't think I've used my brain in about five years, so maybe I should try something new. Yeah. Well, let's get into your story. And I know you have multiple life shifts.

We've talked about this, and I want you to share the one that you feel most compelled to share today.

But in a way to do that, maybe you can kind of paint the picture of what your life was like leading up to this pivotal moment that you feel has really changed you.

Ashley Gould: 00:13:48

Yeah. So I really feel like I had such a wonderful childhood. I.

My parents were divorced when I was three, and although that was difficult in some sense, and not a lot of people around me came from divorced families, number one, I'm a big believer that children are very intuitive, so they know if it's not like, if that relationship between the parents is not working.

And two, I think it actually ultimately gave me a tremendous amount of strength and independence and ambition to be able to take care of myself, which I think is a very positive thing. So.

But I had a wonderful relationship with both of my parents growing up, and I lived predominantly with my mom, and I would spend every other weekend with my dad. But my dad and I always had an incredibly close relationship. I don't know. I think it's. We just were very alike and. Or I should say I was like him.

I looked like him, I thought like him. Just so many things. I followed him into the law. He was a lawyer and.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:14:58

Did you have siblings? Were you an only child?

Ashley Gould: 00:15:00

I have no. I have three sisters. My older sisters are identical twins. And then I have a little sister who doesn't have the same dad.

But my older sisters and I share the same father. Yeah. And during law school, I actually lived with my dad and my stepmom, and it was just an amazing experience.

I would come home talking about torts class or criminal law, and he would remember the cases that we read. I mean, it was honestly amazing. But it was, I think, a really wonderful time. I know for me and I believe for him and my stepmom as well.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:15:37

Because it probably tightened that bond even more because he was seeing you excited about the things that he liked to. Even. Even into your adulthood.

Ashley Gould: 00:15:46

I think so. I think so. And it was a really. It was really like a wonderful time. Especially because as a child, I didn't live with him full time.

I would come sort of every other weekend. So for three years, to live. Live full time under the same roof was really a gift. It was really a gift.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:16:03

With that shared custody, did you feel like when you were going to your dad's it was kind of like going to, like, a vacation home because my parents were divorced when I was a kid, too. So it was like, I don't really live here, but I, like, kind of do.

Ashley Gould: 00:16:15

I don't know. I never thought about it that way. I would always go with my older sisters, and we had, like, our routines.

You know, we would make, like, big breakfasts together. We would play air hockey. There were certain things that we did. I had big wheels that I loved.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:16:31

Except when the rocks got stuck in those wheels.

Ashley Gould: 00:16:35

So I think I was. I was pretty small when they were divorced, so I think I didn't really think about it too much that way.

And then as we got older, you know, you would have, like, parties to go to or other things, so it kind of fell off a bit more. It wasn't as sort of structured. Did you think about it that way?

Matt Gilhooly: 00:16:54

I did. I did. My parents, I think maybe I was like five or six.

I don't know exactly how old I was, but, like, my dad had this other life that I would go, like, drop in on every. Every Wednesday and every other weekend. And it felt.

It felt like, I know this is kind of my room, but, like, I only spend five nights a month here, you know, it was just a very weird experience for me. But then, like, when my mom died, it was like, just kidding.

Now you get to spend all your time with this parent that you didn't really spend a lot of time with before. So, yeah, it felt like vacation. Until it didn't. And then it just felt like a very weird something I wasn't used to experience. So.

Ashley Gould: 00:17:36

Yeah, and I've listened to your story, and it was a trend. I mean, obviously it was a huge transition for many reasons, but just like living predominantly with one parent versus the other alone is.

And then you had to move states and I mean.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:17:50

Yeah, and I think of my dad, too. I think of this 30, mid-30s guy who was in all cases really like a bachelor at the time.

And then all of a sudden, now he's got to be both parents to a grieving child.

Ashley Gould: 00:18:03

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:18:04

When people don't talk about grief, to your point, they still don't talk about grief that much. So, yeah, I mean, quite a transition. But in any case, it didn't feel like vacation for you.

But it does kind of sound like vacation because you were like, we had our fancy breakfast, which you probably didn't have all the time at home, Right?

Ashley Gould: 00:18:21

Yeah, it was.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:18:22

I mean, it's a treat.

Ashley Gould: 00:18:23

It was. It was wonderful. And I did feel like My room was my room, and I always went with my sisters, and we would watch Solid Gold.

I'm dating myself, but we had so much fun doing relatively mundane things, I guess.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:18:38

Did your sisters have a similar relationship with your father?

Ashley Gould: 00:18:41

I mean, I think we all had a wonderful relationship with my father. I think I am probably the most like him in some sense, in terms of, like, the legal side and, you know, the certain things.

But we had really amazing times all together. And my dad had very witty, dry sense of humor. So we would, like.

We would go shopping for clothes, and he would always ask directions to the mannequin, and he would, like, try to embarrass us.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:19:13

Sounds like my dad.

Ashley Gould: 00:19:15

And it was. It was wonderful. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:19:18

And it's fond memories too. I love. I mean, just as you lit up talking about your current company, the way you're talking about your dad, you're lit up as well.

Ashley Gould: 00:19:26

Yeah. And. And so I went to law school. I graduated from law school.

I had actually, it was just in my first year of practicing law when my dad was diagnosed with a rare cancer called myelofibrosis. And he was given three to five years to live.

And I remember there's so many things I don't remember, but I remember after his diagnosis, which took several months because there was an episode in his office where he, like, fainted, they started doing tests. They had really no idea. And it's a rare cancer, so it's harder to diagnose.

And when they finally diagnosed him, I remember driving home from work and seeing people like, you know, on the sidewalk having coffee and, like, laughing and smiling. And I was like, how can they possibly be enjoying their day when my dad has been given a life sentence? You know? And there's this poem by W.H.

auden called Musee de Beaux Arts, and there's a section in it that I feel like just captures that. And I think that people. You probably will relate to this, and I think a lot of people will, who have been through a loss about suffering.

They were never wrong, the old masters, how well they understood its human position, how it takes place while somebody. Someone else is eating or opening a window or just walking dully along.

And it's just this sense that, like, when you are hit with grief, it is all consuming and other people's lives are going on and you can't understand it. It's like, very disorienting at first. And I really remember having that experience when he was diagnosed. So.

And I don't know if you had that or if you have Experienced that I did.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:21:20

When I was in my 30s, my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer. And it was a different experience for me because I had failed at grieving my mom for so long. And I.

I learned how I needed to grieve through the failing. So I knew how to approach that differently. But I was.

Is this like the first kind of your experience in which someone was kind of given a diagnosis that wasn't like three to five year kind of thing?

Ashley Gould: 00:21:49

I mean, so definitely like that. And then also, I mean, I had lost grandparents, but I wasn't. They weren't a daily part of my existence. And my dad and I were so close.

So it just felt. I felt extremely unmoored, I think is the best way to say it.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:22:08

Plus, you got. I mean, that's anticipatory grief too, which.

Ashley Gould: 00:22:12

ears. He died in September of: 2014

And his treating physician told us after the fact, like he remained for years his longing, longest living patient with this disease. And my dad was in clinical trials and he was trying, you know, he tried lots of different medications. They were. There was no.

On label medication for my dad's disease when he was diagnosed. By the time he passed, there was, but he. It wouldn't work for him at that time. So everything was really experimental and he really wanted to live.

And he tried a lot of different things. He ultimately died of a failed bone marrow transplant and he died in the hospital. So he was so weak that they couldn't.

They felt like he would pass on the way home.

And he had been in the hospital for the better part of the last year of his life because he had to have chemotherapy before he could get the transplant anyway. So it was a very involved process. But he did pass in.

They have hospice wings in hospitals, which I don't know if everybody knows about, but they're really peaceful. It was beautiful. I mean, by the time he got to that room, his eyes were closed, but there was like foliage outside. The nurses there are all trained.

Yeah, they're all angels trained to work with, you know, in palliative care. And it was very quiet and peaceful and it was, you know, it was obviously not the outcome that we wanted, but it was, I think, a peaceful ending.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:24:10

Yeah. Do you feel?

Well, first of all, I'm sorry for your loss and having to go through that, a 14 year journey of this, which we could look at it on the surface and say wow. 14 years. But do you see that journey? Is there. Is there a. Was it devastating the entire time?

Were there moments in which you were like, oh, no, he's got this. And, like.

Because I feel like that would be quite a wave pool of grief where it hits at certain times, and then you're like, I thought we were there, and then we're not. What was that journey like in those 14 years for you?

Ashley Gould: 00:24:45

Yeah, And I would say my stepmom would probably be able to answer this in the most profound way, and they had the most beautiful marriage and relationship. But I certainly was there a lot and experienced a lot of it.

So I'll give my experience, which is that there were absolutely ups and downs, and my dad and my stepmom were very focused on living.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:25:13

That's amazing.

Ashley Gould: 00:25:14

And enjoying life.

So one of the things that happens with myelofibrosis is that basically your bone marrow stops working, so your spleen takes over the role of the bone marrow, and so the spleen can become quite enlarged with blood. And ultimately, my dad had to have his spleen removed because it could have burst and killed him.

But before that time, my stepmom, Karen, is Irish, and my dad loved Ireland, and they would go once a year to Ireland, and they would ride horses, and my dad in Ireland would go on, like, they were called hunts. So you would. You would be jumping, and it was pretty rigorous. So he wanted to go on a hunt. And. And he was telling.

Talking with his doctor, and his doctor was like, this is a terrible idea. If you fall on your spleen, you're going to die. Right? And my dad's answer was, I won't fall.

And they went on the trip, and he went on the hunt, and he didn't fall. And, you know, I think it was this. There's so much I'm doing.

I'm doing clinical trials, I'm taking all these medications, and I'm not going to give up the things that bring me the most joy, because you got to.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:26:30

Keep living while you're living.

Ashley Gould: 00:26:31

Right.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:26:32

But I think. I don't know if this is true, but I think a lot of people, when you get this diagnosis, you. Not everyone is a fighter like that.

Not everyone is like, let me get the most out of life, because it's. It is a scary life sentence. But how wrong were those doctors at the beginning?

And was it because your dad was so wanting to live and do the most out of life, or were they just wrong? You know, like, there's so many things like, what if he didn't do that.

Like, he probably prolonged his life because of his drive to get the most out of every moment.

Ashley Gould: 00:27:06

I think so. And the other thing, I like to tell this story, too, and I think this was my stepmom Karen's rule, probably more than my dad.

My dad's name was Harvey, and so I call it the Harvey rule.

But when they would go and get bloodwork done and it was not good, or he would feel terrible or something would happen, he had to have blood transfusions a lot and those kinds of things, they would say, okay, we've got 24 hours to. My stepmom would call it eat worms. Like, you don't feel like doing anything. You just want to eat worms. You want to sit and, like, cry and whatever.

24 hours, and then that's it. We're going to move on. And I think it's. I think it's remarkable that they were both able to do that given the circumstances.

And I also think it's such a beautiful rule for us in our own lives. Like, things go wrong all the time. They don't have to be big things. They could be small things, but they could feel big in the moment.

And to say, okay, I'm going to give myself 24 hours to sit on the couch and watch Netflix and eat Doritos, and then I'm going to pull myself up and I'm going to move forward. I just, like, I think about that all the time when I'm having a difficult time, so.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:28:20

Good. I think it's important. I think especially your generation, which is similar to my generation growing up.

Like, your dad is an anomaly in that sense of, like, as a man and addressing feelings and, like, acknowledging them and. And, like, you know, moving through them in a healthy way. I. I was taught by society. I'm not saying my.

My dad taught me, but, like, I wasn't allowed to be sad. I wasn't allowed to have certain emotions, you know, and just push him down, push him down, push him down.

We know what happens when that, you know, so.

Ashley Gould: 00:28:54

Yeah, exactly.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:28:55

So this Harvey rule is, like, really healthy.

Ashley Gould: 00:28:58

Yeah. And I have to say, I think my dad, he was so warm and loving, and his father Jack was the same way. I remember.

I don't have as many memories of my grandparents, but they lived in Chicago, and we would go to visit them, and I remember my grandfather's raspy voice, and he would. Obviously, he would give us kisses, but he would take my dad's by the cheek, sort of like, here, and kiss him on the lips.

And I remember that as a child. And then my dad would do that with us and with friends, and he was not afraid of feeling and showing his emotions, which is a blessing.

And he did it also through his music, through these songs that he wrote for weddings and bat mitzvahs and all of these major life events that we have, because he spent hours and hours in a recording studio over several years recording them all with, like, an introduction to each song explaining what it was for and what it meant. And it's really special.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:30:08

I mean, that's. I mean, lucky you to have those pieces where you can pass them down.

I mean, you probably absorbed so much of that, too, like growing up with your father or just being open with his emotions.

And, you know, you probably didn't have the standard experience that a lot of people in your neighborhood or the people around you had with their fathers. And so do you feel a lot of that rubbed off on you and in the way that you approach the world?

Ashley Gould: 00:30:36

Yeah, I'm also, like a very heart forward, I guess I would say person I like as a child, I would watch, like, television and I would cry during a commercial or, you know, I was just. But I also have a very strong side to me, and I think my dad had the same. So, like a very emotional side, but also a very strong side.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:30:58

But I also would agree or argue that the emotional side is the strong side.

Ashley Gould: 00:31:04

I think that's. That's right. That's actually fair. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:31:07

Because it takes a lot to. To your dad and your stepmother's role of. Like, we can acknowledge how we're feeling right now, and it's okay if it's not good and it's okay.

We're not going to dwell on it forever, but right now we're just going to live in it because this is where we are right now. And it's pretty crappy. Right. And that's okay. And I think that's there. I do that now, like, as an adult.

I didn't do this as a kid because I didn't know how. But, like, I might have a bad day. I don't know why I'm having a bad day, but I feel off, and I acknowledge that.

I'm like everyone around me, people I love not feeling great today. Don't worry. Just wanted to let you know, and I'll be fine. You know, like, I have my ways, and I think it's really important.

And I think that was probably another reason why he survived so many years past that original diagnosis, because he was in check with the things that he was feeling. And he was chasing all the other things too. Right. Like trying to chase. How can he live even longer?

Ashley Gould: 00:32:10

Absolutely. And I do think. I do think that we were all a bit in denial. I will say that. Like, I think. I also think the doctors could. They were wonderful.

I want to be, like, super clear. They were wonderful, but I don't think that they gave us all the information.

Like, if he goes through with the bone marrow transplant, what are his chances? Yeah, like, what are his chances of survival? So his last year, I think, could have been quite different.

And you hear and read about a lot of stories where people sort of say, okay, I'm done with the treatments and I'm going to focus on quality of life for whatever the time that I have left.

So I do think there are parts that my stepmom and I talk about this a lot, that if we could rewind and do that last year differently, we probably would choose to. But again, I don't know if my dad would have chosen to.

He was a fighter and he was determined, you know, but one of the things that he didn't do, I mean, he left us this legacy with all of the songs and the music, but because I really, really believe he thought he was going. It was going to be successful. He didn't like, write letters to anybody. He didn't sort of say goodbye really, to anybody.

And I know, I know for my stepmom that that has like. That to this day is like a great sadness. And that is one of the things in the Death and Dying series that I'm doing.

I had a woman on named Susan Turnbull who focuses on what she calls ethical wills.

And this idea of just today, just write down a few sentences, a few bullet points, a paragraph, and make sure somebody knows that it's there for whomever in your life.

You would like to know something and you can add to it over time and you can, you know, But I think it's such a beautiful idea and would have been also wonderful to have.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:34:11

I would. My own personal experience. So 20 something years of like, what I call failing at grief with losing my mom, because I just didn't have the tools.

The people around me didn't have the tools. I wasn't ready.

Who knows, in my 30s, got a hold of that, figured that out, figured out the things I would never want to feel again related to a loss like that. So when my grandmother got sick, we were like, the way you describe you and your father, that's how I got with My dad's mom. And we were very close.

And when we got the diagnosis, you know, we were kind of just, let's stay positive. Let's do all this stuff.

But then when we got towards the end and we knew, okay, this might be the end, we had this birthday party or whatever, and I was the last one at her apartment, and I just felt, like, compelled. I was like, there's a chance that I could leave this apartment tonight, and she's no longer going to be there.

And so I forced our conversation, and I forced the ethical will out loud. And I told her everything that she ever did for me and how grateful I was. And there was.

When we were done with our tears and crying through tears and everything, when I left that apartment that night, I felt like if she passed away, there was nothing left unsaid. And the only reason I did that is because I lost my mom in the way that I did.

And so, like, having that experience allowed me to have this, like, amazing. I wish everyone could have conversation that you weren't able to have with your father or your stepmother wasn't able to have with your father.

And so if anyone's hearing this and you're going through that, I highly, highly, highly recommend. It's uncomfortable.

It's the worst conversation that you will ever start, but it's the best conversation you'll ever finish because you'll have that forever. So I was fortunate. I'm sorry that you didn't have that opportunity to do that.

Ashley Gould: 00:36:13

You know, it's mostly my stepmom that I feel, like, this pain that she didn't get, that I had so much love for my father, and I know he had so much love for me, and I know my stepmom knows that that's true, too. But I don't think I needed that as much.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:36:30

Okay.

Ashley Gould: 00:36:30

I think some people do need it, though. And so to take your advice, I think is really good advice. And, you know, again, it kind of bridges to what I'm doing now.

Like, having those difficult conversations, I would argue, are always the most important conversations. And the ones where you're, like, hesitant to start the conversation.

Okay, push through, because those are the ones that you're going to be so grateful that you did.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:36:59

I. I agree. I think the more open we can be, the more we will end up realizing how similar we are.

Ashley Gould: 00:37:06

Absolutely.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:37:08

So I'm curious. I know how important this relationship was with your father when he was living, and it still is very important while he's not here.

And you have these memories, which is so beautiful as well. How did. Or was it like when he passed, the day he passed, what. What felt like that switch where.

Where life felt different for you was a period of time after or.

Ashley Gould: 00:37:32

Yeah.

So I actually thought about this a lot before talking with you, and I would say my life shift was probably at his diagnosis and not at his death because it was such an earthquake in my life, and I. I really didn't know how to process it, and I couldn't. It took me a really long time to sort of.

I don't know if make peace with it is the right way to say it, but to accept it, maybe to.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:38:01

See it as truth.

Ashley Gould: 00:38:02

Yeah. And even though it was 14 years later that he died, I will say. And I will say we were not prepared for it.

Maybe we should have been more prepared for it. I don't know. But it was still just. The pain was just insufferable.

But I think it was when he was diagnosed that it sort of shattered this illusion that life will go on and forced me to sort of come to terms with that. All of which I think has been a good thing ultimately, even though difficult, but it was really life altering for me.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:38:44

And did you see your father before that as, like, superhuman? I mean, the way you describe him, it sounds like he was just like this. And like, I could see how something like that might rock you.

Ashley Gould: 00:38:54

Yeah, I mean, he was larger than life. He had the biggest personality. He loved to tell jokes, he loved to tell stories. He was actually a litigator.

So he loved standing in front of people, you know, to tell stories and explain things. And he had this wonderful quality that if you were talking with him, he would never.

You know, you're talking to people sometimes and they're like, oh, what's going on over there? Or, who's that? My dad would never, ever do that. He was like you, and he. That was it. He was having one conversation. He was all in.

You felt like you were the center of the universe. He was just like a special person.

I mean, obviously, intellectually, I understood that he was not going to live forever, but I didn't at all think, you know, that in his 50s, he was going to be given a life sentence, you know, and I was wholly unprepared for that.

And I do think now that there is a huge benefit to acknowledging that all of our lives are finite, that death comes for all of us, and to do what we can now to make our peace with that. And there are some wonderful books out there. BJ Miller and Shoshana Berger wrote a beautiful book. Atul Gawande wrote a beautiful book.

I mean, there are a number of resources out there. And I think it's this idea that we don't want to talk about it. We don't want to think about it. We want to pretend it's never going to happen.

And all of that, I think, makes things more difficult. And I had to work through that. I had no choice but to work through that. And that was really a big life shift for me.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:40:40

Did it? Yes, I agree with that. I think people. I don't know, I feel like so many people think, like, death is just for grandparents. Like, it's just like this.

You're gonna get old, and then you're gonna die. I never thought that, mainly because of my own experience.

My mom was 32, so it was like, when I thought I was gonna die at 32, like, that was just, I better do everything now because, you know, like, I don't know what it's like after 32, but I would imagine. And maybe I'm wrong. But did this diagnosis make you look at.

I need to squeeze every moment out of this relationship more like, did you get even closer with your father? Were you. Were you a helicopter daughter? Like, what did. How did that change your. Your relationship with him?

Ashley Gould: 00:41:29

I actually don't think so. I think we were so close to begin with. Like, I don't know that we could get closer. I. And I was. You know, I met my husband after he was diagnosed.

I had my children. I mean, first I got married. I didn't think he was going to make it to my wedding. Then I had my first son.

I didn't think he was going to get to meet him. Then I had my second son. He got to meet him. So I think there were. There were all of these.

I don't know what to call them, like, unexpected, wonderful times we got because we really were relying on the doctors.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:42:10

Does it make all those little moments sweeter because he made it?

Ashley Gould: 00:42:14

Definitely. Absolutely.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:42:16

Yeah. Because I think we naturally, as humans, have this, like, what if? Tendency. And, like, what if I get married and dad passes away the week before?

What if I have. What if I'm about to give birth and he passed? You know, like, I could imagine I would think that way.

I would always be like, okay, is my grandmother going to make it to this? Because I've booked a trip to go visit. Is it too late? You know, like, those things.

So I can imagine that every moment that you got to have after that was like, yeah, yeah, this is so much sweeter.

Ashley Gould: 00:42:47

I was also living my life. I was working really hard. I was married, I had young children, and he wanted me to be living my life. So I wasn't always there, but I was.

You know, we lived in the same city. I saw him a lot, so. And I am also extremely fortunate that I was able to go to the hospital a lot.

When he was in the hospital, even, you know, my boss was wonderful and allowed me to. I would go in the mornings and, you know, so I had. I had a lot of special time. And I actually.

I'm going to, like, cry when I say this, but I was actually with him when he died. I was holding his hand in the hospital, and I. As hard as that was, it was, I mean, a huge honor, really.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:43:38

I. I agree. I had that opportunity, as the way I look at it now, to do that with my grandmother.

I spent the last 96 hours of her life with her in hospice. And my thought, and this is probably true for you, too, is that he was there around the time you took your first breath.

And how lucky are you to be there when he took his last? As sad as that is, I describe it as devastatingly beautiful, because it felt.

When I was watching my grandmother take her last breath, devastated, like, you know, falling apart, of course, me. But something about it gave me so much peace that we did all we could, we said everything we needed to do.

She knows all the people around her that were around her bed were the people that loved her the most in her life. And so, for me, I was fortunate, in a sense, to be able to absorb that moment in that way. And I hope that you feel that way about your experience.

I know that it's. It's a hard one, but.

Ashley Gould: 00:44:46

No, but I do memory. I wouldn't change it for the world. I mean, it was absolutely an honor to be there with him.

He maybe unlike your grandmother, my father was, for days not talking. His eyes weren't open, so it wasn't. I mean, I felt the warmth of his hand, but he wasn't talking to me. It wasn't like that.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:45:09

Yeah, it was very similar for me. We had the opportunity as well. It wasn't a hospice wing of a hospital, but it was a hospice house.

Ashley Gould: 00:45:16

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:45:17

Which is. It was basically like a beautiful, like, quiet hotel, essentially. And, yeah, she was probably.

I think I got there, whatever, 96, however many days that is, because you kind of lose track of time. And I didn't leave the room. And my dad was like, she's just, you know, she's not. She's just laying there like, you can step out. We can go to dinner.

I'm like, nope, this is my role, and this is what I do, and this is why we do it, and this is what we do for people we love. And so I think it's really important just, you know, in our conversation, acknowledging that we had the opportunity to do that.

But I would encourage people listening.

If you have the opportunity to be there with someone you love so much, whether or not they're fully there or their body is, just be there because you will not regret it.

Ashley Gould: 00:46:04

I agree. I wholeheartedly agree.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:46:07

What did life look like for you after he passed?

Ashley Gould: 00:46:12

So I really learned a lot about grief in the immediate aftermath of my dad's passing. And my perspective is that grief takes us on our own individual journeys. And that was something I had not really understood before.

So when I was in eighth grade, my best friend lost her father, and she really turned to other friends at the time. And I took it personally. I was, like, really hurt. And when my dad died, I finally understood that, like, I don't.

I personally don't think we get to choose our grief path. I think it chooses us. And for me, that was. I needed to be alone. And my husband was wonderful. He really let me be alone. He took care of the kids.

And I just spent a lot of time listening to my dad's music, reading emails that he sent me, listening to music that we enjoyed together because we. I would, you know, I'm going to date myself again, but I used to make mixtapes, and I would make him mix tapes.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:47:11

Casey Kasem.

Ashley Gould: 00:47:14

So listening to music that we enjoyed together and just kind of sitting in it by myself. And I really needed to do that, I would say, until he was buried. And it's interesting. I'm reading a book now on.

I'm Jewish, and I'm reading a book on the Jewish way of death and dying. And they talk about they have a name for a person between when a loved one dies and when the loved one is buried.

And in the Jewish tradition, you're supposed to bury someone within a day. We did not do that. And my stepmom is Catholic, and we had family flying in. And so it took, you know, the better part of a week, I would say.

And I really. And in reading this book now, I'm like, it's so true. You're like this different person until your loved one is buried or however you.

Whatever death ritual you have. And after that, I was able to, like, eat again.

And Engage with the world Again, not 100%, but I had a very, very, like, you know, this time period where I was just really not of the world, in a sense, is the way I would describe it.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:48:28

And then after that, did you have waves? And, oh, okay. Still to this day, you weren't like, perfect.

Ashley Gould: 00:48:34

Still to this day, I hear a song and I'll just start crying or I'll put on his song. So I get to hear his voice, which is really, really wonderful.

And sometimes it just makes me cry to hear his voice or I'll think, oh, I wish my older son is a senior in high school. I really wish my dad would get to see him graduate and go off to college. And so there are these moments where that grief is still intense.

And there are also increasingly, over the years, moments when I can feel him around me.

I don't want to say watching over me, because I don't feel that, but it's like I feel his presence and that he's still part of my life, you know, so it's not. And that is a glad feeling. I wouldn't say a happy feeling, but I would say a glad feeling. Right. So it's very. It's very up and down.

And I would say for me, and I'm not sure if your experience has been the same, that with time, I have experienced more of the gladness and less of the intense grief. Although I still have it.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:49:47

My experience is, I think, a little different, mainly because losing my mom suddenly as a kid, not understanding death, not understanding how to grieve, I wasn't able to do that. And so then when I did, I got really mad that I didn't do it earlier. Like, it was like, there was a lot of anger that came with it. And so.

And the fact that, like, I was 8, so you don't really have core memories too many of those. So my mother essentially is kind of more of like a figment for me.

Ashley Gould: 00:50:22

Yes.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:50:23

Like a figure. She was my mother. I remember her a little bit, but I don't remember her, if that makes any sense.

Ashley Gould: 00:50:29

It does make sense.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:50:31

And then. But then I don't know how to use the right words.

But, like, in a fortunate way, because of that being so terrible, I was able to process the grief of losing my grandmother in, like, what I. I felt was the most healthy. Like, cut this kind of way. So it felt really good.

However, I just recently lost a dog that I had for 14 and a half years, and I never experienced grief like that. And it was fascinating to me because I thought going into this, like, pro. Like, I know what to do. I know how to do it.

I didn't know what it was like to lose a shadow, and that was. That threw me for a loop. And to your point, your grief path chooses you because. And if you're. If you're. If you're willing, you let it.

Ashley Gould: 00:51:19

Yeah. So what. What does your grief path with your mother look like today for you?

Matt Gilhooly: 00:51:26

It doesn't really exist anymore. It becomes a catalyst to have these conversations.

It becomes a look back on the person I became because of it and the things that I learned because of it. But I do say that that grief journey is essentially closed, which is weird. And people are like, don't say that. I was like, but that's how it feels.

Yeah.

Ashley Gould: 00:51:54

What it is.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:51:55

Yeah. It is what it is. With my grandmother, I feel pretty similar. I miss her in different ways, but I don't have, like, a.

I'm fortunate that I don't get too sad anymore about either of them.

Ashley Gould: 00:52:08

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:52:09

So I don't know, it's. It's been quite a weird thing to be so vocal about it on this podcast and sharing it with people, and I think that helps.

Ashley Gould: 00:52:17

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:52:18

To your. To our earlier point of having these conversations, getting it out is so healing.

Ashley Gould: 00:52:25

Absolutely.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:52:26

Even if it's the most terrible thing that's ever come out of your mouth. Like, it sounds really bad saying it. It's much scarier when it's up here bouncing around.

Ashley Gould: 00:52:34

Yeah. Yeah. And sharing it. You can hopefully help somebody else and hopefully feel some sense of community, too.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:52:45

Yeah. Because to your point, we're all going to lose somebody. We're all going to end up losing ourselves in some way, and it's just part of it.

It's part of this journey. And however long we get, that's what we get. And we have to make the most of what we have while we're here.

It sounds like you're doing that now in this chapter of your life. I mean, not that you weren't doing it before, but, like, it seems like you're really living in your joy.

Ashley Gould: 00:53:09

I am. Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:53:11

Does part of you. Is there. Is there a pull.

I don't know how to word this, where it's not going to sound bad, but, like, does part of you feel, like, sad that you're in so much joy with your dad not here?

Ashley Gould: 00:53:26

I mean, yes, to the extent that I would obviously prefer that he be here, that I would have more time with him and that he would get to see different life events. Like, my Son graduating from high school. But I know.

I really know deeply that he would want me to live the happiest, fullest life that I can, and that that is actually honoring him to do that.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:53:56

Yeah. And you still have that relationship with him.

And you said you still, you know, feel his presence, you know, his energy, whatever that may be in you because you are your father's daughter.

Ashley Gould: 00:54:09

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:54:09

And so that's always gonna be a part of it. And I know that question. When I'm gonna listen back to that, I'm gonna be like, what did you ask, Matt?

But I think you understand where it was coming from is like, I think sometimes we put this shame or this guilt on ourselves for, like, enjoying something after something bad happens.

I don't know if you've talked to people that are, like, actively in a deep grief period and they're so afraid that if they laugh that they're doing it wrong.

Ashley Gould: 00:54:37

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:54:37

Or, you know, like. Like they're feeling an emotion that's like, oh, maybe they had a happy moment and they're like, I'm supposed to be sad. And it's like, you're human.

You're going to go through all the waves. And if you laugh at something, that's okay, doesn't mean that you're not missing that person or grieving that person.

Ashley Gould: 00:54:54

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think.

I'm no expert on this, but I think that it is pretty normal to feel a sense of either shame or embarrassment for feeling good after a loss.

And it's something I think we each just have to work through because nobody, none of our loved ones would want us to live the rest of our lives without joy and happiness in it. And yet coming back to it feels like it's an offense to their memory, But I think it's actually the opposite.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:55:36

I would agree. I think we're just conditioned that it is an offense to the. I think it's just like, oh, wait, was that too quick? Like, did I get here too quickly?

Is there a problem? But it's not. It's like you said, our path is our path, and it's going to choose us and we're going to go along it.

And hopefully we do it in a way that serves us in the best way, because I think we become better humans because of it.

Ashley Gould: 00:55:57

Yeah. And I do think that's one thing which is.

And as you said, like, listen to the path that grief is taking you on and try to go on that journey, and it will look different for everybody. But I do really feel like you will go on the journey you're meant to go on if you follow that path.

And if you don't, maybe it just takes you longer to heal.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:56:20

You know, I did that too. You know, I think there's lots of lessons that I got.

I mean, I got the most beautiful of conversations with my grandmother because of the horrible grief journey that I went on or the delayed grief journey that I went on with my mom. So, you know, goods and you take the good, you take the bad. Wasn't that a theme song of something? The Facts of life.

Ashley Gould: 00:56:44

I had one other question for you.

Have you in the intervening years been able to work through with your dad sort of that post, like post losing your mom grief and how it wasn't processed then?

Matt Gilhooly: 00:57:00

Yeah, but I don't think. Well, okay, so yes, we have, we have a great relationship. We would not have this great relationship, in my opinion, had my mother not died.

We've had a lot of conversations about that journey that we both took probably the 10 years after my mom died. And really we were both doing the best we knew how.

Ashley Gould: 00:57:21

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:57:22

And we were just trying to survive. I mean, he was a mid-30s, wasn't ready to grow up kind of guy and you know, he had to, he had to take care of this broken child.

And so, yeah, we've had the conversations. I don't think we would have been able to do it any differently because it was the late 80s, people weren't talking about kids grieving.

It was just like, make them happy, take them to Disney. You know, like those were the things that society was telling adults to do.

Ashley Gould: 00:57:49

I think that's another, like, really important point which is to give yourself grace. Like we're, generally speaking, we're all doing the best we can in everything in life.

I hope so, to give ourselves and others grace, but particularly ourselves when it comes to grief.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:58:05

I, I think it's been really interesting now in my 40s, looking back at that time period and having these conversations and having things click in ways where like, oh, like I recently within this journey came to the realization that I took on perfectionist traits because of a fear of abandonment. Because in my little 8 year old brain my mom abandoned me by dying. And I thought if I wasn't perfect, my dad might also do that.

And then it lasted longer than it should have. But it's interesting to unpack it now and have the ability and the wherewithal to your point, give myself grace and talk about that.

Ashley Gould: 00:58:47

Yeah.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:58:47

In a way that's productive and not shameful or those kind of things.

Ashley Gould: 00:58:52

Right.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:58:53

For sure. So, I mean, we're lucky to be humans and be able to reflect and think and be aware.

Ashley Gould: 00:59:01

Absolutely.

Matt Gilhooly: 00:59:02

I love to end these conversations with a question.

And I'm wondering if with all the joy and the things you know now and the journey you were able to go on with your father after his diagnosis, is there anything that Ashley was driving down the road, seeing the people drinking their coffee and stuff, is there anything you want to say to that version of Ashley?

Ashley Gould: 00:59:27

I guess I would say it will be okay. And I know that sounds trite, perhaps, but. And to be okay doesn't mean, like, everything's good, right? It just means that you move.

Like, I will be able to move forward. I will have joy in my life. I will have grief in my life.

I mean, it gave my life more texture, and I think it is texture we all acquire at some point in life if we allow ourselves to, because we all face these losses.

But in that moment when I was driving and seeing people enjoying coffee and just incredulous, I think I would say, yes, life does have to go on, actually. And not just for the people drinking coffee, but for me as well.

And there was the point when he was diagnosed and then the point right after he died where life stopped and then restarted. And I think so I think I would say, you know, it will be okay.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:00:38

You're not the only one that would say that.

And at the moment, you probably wouldn't have believed it because everything felt splintered and, like, how do I put all these pieces back together when you logically probably knew everything was going to be okay? It just feels, like, so broken at those moments in which everything changes. So thank you for sharing your father with us and this journey that.

This honest journey of loss and how you still find joy in life, too.

Ashley Gould: 01:01:08

Well, thank you for letting me share about my father, Harvey Gould.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:01:13

If people want to find out about your company, check out your podcast. What's the best way to get in your orbit?

Ashley Gould: 01:01:20

Yeah, so my company is Amatand, www.a m e a t e n d r e.com and a link to my podcast is also on that website. My podcast, though, you can find on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever. And it's called on the Table with Ashley. We're also on Instagram.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:01:41

Yes.

Ashley Gould: 01:01:42

Amitand used to be on the Table.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:01:45

But you moved over.

Ashley Gould: 01:01:46

We moved over to Amitand.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:01:47

Yeah, I love that.

Ashley Gould: 01:01:48

Keep it all together.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:01:49

And I think it's important, too, if this conversation resonated with you as you're listening. Ashley is just as we speak right now.

It might be over by the time this comes out, but there's a death and dying series where she's talking to a bunch of professionals and people in the industry that can share some or shed some light on things that maybe we don't regularly talk about with each other. So thank you for doing that and putting that into the world.

Ashley Gould: 01:02:12

Oh yeah, thank you so much. Really decided to do that to honor my father.

Was so this September was the 10 year anniversary of his death and I just still feel like you do that we're not talking about these subjects enough and so wanted to spend a bit more time doing that and talking to palliative care doctors and people with different grief journeys and different burial customs and you know, so it's pretty wide ranging and ethical wills and so yeah, hopefully people will get something from that. I hope they will.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:02:46

Oh, definitely. I think it's very valuable. People might be afraid. Don't be afraid to listen to it.

I've listened to all of the series so far and I think there's a lot of good nuggets to put in your back pocket because guess what? We're all not going to make it to live forever. I don't want to live forever anyway.

But you know, there are some good tools I got to make my little ethical will and those other things that come along with it. But thank you again for sharing this story of your father and actually of you.

Ashley Gould: 01:03:13

Oh, thank you. And thank you for having me. It's been wonderful.

Matt Gilhooly: 01:03:17

If you are listening and something that Ashley said resonate with you, reach out to her, connect with her, share your story. That would be so great and really, truly, if someone in your life might need to hear this story, please share it with them.

I think that's the best we can do for for each other. So with that, I'm going to say goodbye and I will be back next week with a brand new episode of the Life Shift podcast. Thanks again, Ashley.

For more information, please visit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.